About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

To join a workshop, first find one that is of interest to you. Once you have found the right workshop (and verified that it is open -- you can find this out in the description below), you can apply to join the workshop.


Join the Neopoet online poetry workshop and community to improve as a writer, meet fellow poets, and showcase your work. Sign up, submit your poetry, and get started.

Rhyme Crimes

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description: This workshop’s goals are three fold.

The first will be to expose the participant to the wide array of rhyme types available to the poet beyond that known as “proper rhyme” (which will be described fully in the workshop’s first essay). Each day of the first two weeks I will introduce and describe one of the more esoteric rhyme types for discussion in preparation for part three.

The second will be to explain (and enforce within the confines of the workshop) the technical parameters involved with common rhyme. For the purposes of our exercise this most widely used of rhyme types will be referred to as “proper” though its names in English are manifold including, but not limited to: “authentic”, “classic”, “traditional”, “perfect” and more. Being the most used of all rhyme forms it is of course also the most abused and this workshop will attempt to clarify what makes a proper rhyme and what does not.

The third will be to construct a minimum of three short poems. The first poem will correctly utilize proper rhyme. The other two poems will employ two of the other rhyme types discussed in part one. To assure the participant is fully immersed in the challenge, the third rhyme type will be chosen for the poet by the workshop’s leader (that would be me).
An optional challenge (which would relieve the poet from producing multiple poems) will allow the poet to write a single poem using three types of rhyme within one piece. Although this sounds quite difficult (even revolutionary), it is quite common in the poetry of Pope, Dunne, Dryden, Shakespeare and Byron to name but a few.

Please remember to put Rhyme Crimes Workshop in the title when you post your submissions because they appear on the Stream, so that people critiquing can know the context of the poem.

Leader: Wesley Snow
Moderator(s): Stan Holliday/Judyanne

Objectives: The final objective is to leave the poet with a better understanding of the mechanics of rhyme, including the depth of variation in rhyme schemes and thereby be able to recognize when the “rules” are being broken and how an informed bending or breaking of these rules can add or detract from the poet’s work.

Level of expertise: Olympic Pool

Subject matter: Rhyme

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
100 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Friday, June 1, 2012 to Sunday, July 1, 2012
Short description: 
An extended discussion and exercise concerning rhyme, its many variations and rhyme schemes.

Comments

I look forward to participating in this workshop if you accept me in sir ...

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

It is time to rhyme
with Sir Wesley Snow
Who won't allow a crime
in a poetry's show.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

.... in my workshop, in my heart. I will return this evening and toss out an opening essay that we can discuss. The workshop doesn't actually start until June 1. Welcome Rula.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Thank you

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

i see you'll accomodate 100 people for this workshop... no wonder you're so busy xx

i'm looking forward to this, when were you planning to start?
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Just read the above syllabus and it gives start and finish dates. You need to familiarize yourself with the form for later. I wrote 100 because 1) we have few rhymers and I don't expect a large turnout and 2) the workshop will not be too "physically" demanding. It will be an attempt to "introduce" rhyme in a way more comprehensive than most poets view it. So a lot of conversation, not so much work to keep up with. If Jess will okay it and this workshop is a success, I will go on with something more challenging in the same "venue" later.

Now, since we haven't started yet I will yet throw out my first salvo to think about.

“She wasn’t particular; she could write about anything you choose to give her to write about just so it was sadful. Every time a man died, or a woman died, or a child died, she would be on hand with her “tribute” before he was cold. She called them tributes. The neighbors said it was the doctor first, then Emmeline, then the undertaker- the undertaker never got in ahead of Emmeline but once, and then she hung fire on a rhyme for the dead person’s name which was Whistler. She warn’t ever the same after that; she never complained, but she kinder pined away and did not live long.”
Mark Twain

“Mark Twain was a rigidly honest man, so beyond doubt Emmeline did indeed die of grief for want of a rhyme.”
Williard R. Espy

As the masses trickle in I would very much like everyone to answer this question.

"Why do poet's rhyme?"

Here's an important distinction. I do not ask "what" rhyme is or whether poet's should rhyme or not. A plethora of poet's rhyme and I would like to discuss "why".

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I was always told that the only two words that don't have perfect rhymes in English are 'silver' and 'orange'. Better add 'whistler'

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

It just takes a little imagination.

"The four eng-
ineers
wore orange
brassieres."

Hold on to your hats folks, we're about to begin.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I guess a rhyming misspell could be orranged...........................................(too scared to sign)

The self-employed de-thistler
(A giant among the weeders),
Was noted as a whistler
Of classics like "Aida".

Ian

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

Hello Mr. Snow, my name is Ron Woodruff. I believe that rhyming is intrinsic to the craft of peotry; The ability to say what must be said under the constraints of a specific syllable by syllable rhyme scheme is vital to a poets group. To those that say "Sylvia Plath didn't write in rhyme", I say "I beg to differ, those are just not the ones shown in her canon for the most part. She also would not have had the precision she showed if not for form poetry, even sestina.

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Join us in the rhyme workshop. It's pretty low key and I doubt it will confuse you coming in late. Write a quatrain using "proper" rhymes (that's the official name we have given to the rhyme poets call "authentic", "perfect", "true"... ad nauseating. Check out the syllabus first. See you there if you've the time. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

i missed the dates.. too busy having a chuckle at the thought of 100 participants...
ok - i'm off to bed now, i will start my homework tomorrow :)

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Don't be scared to join even if you're not much for writing in rhyme. This is not going to be as hard as it sounds and Rhyme is one of the most powerful tools in poetry. It can even be used in free form to great effect. So toss timidity aside and send those membership requests ................stan

I will join if you will have me.

lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

I'm leaving so I won't join

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

How touching is the story of Emmline and sad too.. :( I almost wanted to cry.

Why do poets rhyme? An interesting question indeed. I think it is related to many reasons . Sometimes it is related to the fact that the poets use as a way to attract the reader. I find it -and many others - much interesting to read rhymed lines than to read a short paragraph of prose- Not my Husband though:).

Other reasons might be related to the sense of creativity. I think it is not easy to create a rhyming piece. I believe that not everyone has the ability to construct rhyming poetry.

For me ,it is my heart . As my heart rhymes , I like my poetry to too. If hearts don't rhyme , I think this means they don't work right , does this make any sense?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Lou, we're delighted to have you. I'll add you to the list now and if you have a minute or two before we officially start, please let us hear what you think about why we rhyme.

Rula, of course it makes sense. Although I don't like this about me, I will confess to writing with rhyme partly because it's harder. Or rather it used to be. Rhyming is not natural for human thought processes, but if you work with something long enough it becomes quite natural. After some 20,000 polished lines of couplets in my epic, it is now difficult for me to write and not rhyme.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

This is what I have said. Only creative people like to rhyme or work hard to create a rhyme
and this is the case with you , I believe .Rhyming is harder for the process the human thought but goes easier with the emotions , the heart .

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

or work hard to create a rhyme?

Well, I give up, clearly I'm an uncreative dolt. I'll go back to bricklaying.

Please tell me you were being facetious. Otherwise you are being ignorant, arrogant and ignoring a huge body of fine freeverse.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Don't take it too seriously Please.Besides you do sure rhyme when you WANT to,don't you? I always believed that all poets can naturally rhyme.So POETS are creative, are't they?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Usually half rhyme and only when appropriate.

Generally I regard rhyme as a device, only to be used in special cases,

I have therefore withdrawn from this workshop.

Apology accepted, but when you learn all aspects of rhyme you will use it to far better effect.

I have studied it for 40 years and know for a fact it is not the creativity of poetry.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

you smart-arsed pedantic cretin.
I'll clarify my statement for argumentative morons
I have studied it for 40 years and know for a fact that rhyme is not the only creativity of poetry.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Do come back to the workshop. At least, a quatrain from you would be nice :(

Thank you,
The Jess from the other side of the world.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

I think you are correct that rhyme originally came into being as a means of memorizing oral histories. The same can be said for meter or "beat". And it apparently works. I know I'm pejudiced towar rhyming works, but for those of you who aren't, how many can remember a full stanza of free verse as compared to a full stanza of rhyming verse ? But for me a well constructed rhyme is a thing of beauty whether memorable or not.
And let's all be honest. We All would like to have a few of our poems remembered by at least a few people. So if using rhyme, even as a segment of a free form poem, adds to that chance what's wrong with that. Would we still remember :I think I know who owns theses woods, but he lives in the village not here, he won't be worried over my pausing here, to watch the snow fall gently in the wood? .........but I'll bet we All remember:
whose wood these are I think I know
his house is in the village though
he will not mind my stopping here
to watch his woods fill up with snow

Rhyme....stanza structure.....rhythm.......alliteration......rhyme patterns...........all integral parts of most poetry and all helpful in memory retention

Rhyme is inextricably connected with meter. Do not make meter the major theme, of course, but many rhymes fail because the do not take into the meter of the rhyme word. Eg, if the stress is on the first syllable and the rhymes tressses the last, it doesn't work.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Can I join? I need alot of help in rhyming. I do not know one rhyming structure from another. Such as ABAB or AABB etc. (if those are structures at all?) I would love to learn and work hard.

I love well rhymed poetry. It sings to my soul...a type of music that even the hearing impaired can enjoy. I agree with Beau, that rhymed verses are a great tool for remembering.

Always, Cat

When you fling poo, some of the stink sticks to you!

"The Book of Styx" can be ordered and purchased on line at:
http://eddystyx.mythramuse.com/

from this workshop, is that it will help develop your ear for meter (my pet pre-occupation).
Good rhyming works hand in hand with meter.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

lol I have spent more time looking for a perfect rhyme for Emmeline to RIP with, than think about why poets rhyme.
I guess she wouldn't have accepted an approximate with
'whistler / kissed her' ??

or one of those apocopate ones
‘and she then goodbye did kiss
her dear beloved whistler’ ??

I’ll say just one reason as to why poets write in rhyme, for I won’t know where to stop once I start listing them…

Apart from the use of mimetic to remember a story, the effect of rhythm and rhyme on a write, when used well, can add to the reader’s involvement in movement of the story / description / emotions, as well as within the sight and sound of the words.

Well I don't know the main reasons anyone else rhymes, but as for me - I have a rhyming muse who won’t let me alone. I think in rhyme most of the time. See? I was brought up on Alfred Noyes’ 'The Highwayman'. That was my bedtime story of choice. I have loved it for as long as I can remember, and have been able to recite it for as long as I can remember. Also I was brought up on country music – not country and western – country (there’s a difference) and the rhythm and rhyme are in my head if not in my bones

I am looking forward to this workshop
love judy

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I'm getting where I think in rhyme
I must be going mad
when thought swirls like this all the time
(although the meter's bad)

I guess there's only one sure cure
for a sickness like this
and that's to produce something pure
I goal I always miss.....................................lol

I would like to join the workshop.

i don't think wesley has seen your message - we'll draw his attention to it shall we, so he can add you to the participant list :)

yoo hoo wesley - over here xx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

it's one of the reasons I want to join this workshop, to hone skills and make my mind work in different ways.

Just for the record, my Thesis on poetry 'proved' that meter came before rhyme. Ancient shamans emerged form a trance accompanied by drums and the words came out naturally in rhythm. Rhyme was a later invention when language was more sophisticated and the extended vocabulary allowed for rhyming synonyms.

Beau is right. Rhyme, and meter, are excellent mnemonic aids, hence their place in oral traditions. My very favourite poems are freeform, but I only memorise rhyming ones! [grins], with the exception of 'Alice's Restaurant'
which I memorised verbatim from first hearing at age 15.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

We are not trying to teach history and knowledge through oral traditions. We are not trying to remember the date Columbus 'discovered' America. We are not (always) trying to entertain children.

We are trying to create beauty through language.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Welcome my dears. I will sign you in before toddling off to bed.

Now for an opening salvo and it speaks directly to both Jess and Beau's comment about "memory".

This is what Mr. Webster says about rhyme-
Rhyme: (M.E. rime associated with M.E., with A.S. rim- a number; but from O.Fr. rime; Probably from Latin rhythmus ; English spelling likely influenced by association with rhythm; In Middle Latin rithmus meant “accentual verse” which was usually rhymed hence the modern sense.)

Historically thinking, rhythm came first and was so intricately involved with rhyme as to have been, at one time, considered one and the same.
The earliest rhyme of record belongs to Shi Jing in his "Sheh Ching" (The Book of Songs). That places it in 600 BCE, but as Beau suggests it was undoubtedly primitive in its creation.
When we get started tomorrow, I will begin offering each day a type of rhyme and a brief description. Many of these types will be redundant and therefore not worth our time and several have been discussed in different ways of late. For example, although "assonance" and "consonance" are considered forms of rhyme as well as sentence structure, we have just spent a concentrated workshop being bullied by both of those fiends and I have far too many valid (and not so valid) forms of rhyme to want to include them. In this list let us also bundle "alliteration".

But if we would begin at the beginning, we must begin with "proper" rhyme (this type of rhyme has so many synonyms as to overwhelm our little workshop- authentic, classic, traditional, perfect... let's play a game. How many more names can we come up with before moving on to more esoteric stuff).

So here I leave a description of proper rhyme by Williard R. Espy that I have used for years. I would like to hear what everyone's thoughts are on Rhyme #1.

“The correspondence, in two or more words or verses, of terminal sounds beginning with an accented vowel, which, in modern English usage, must be preceded by different consonantal sounds, or by a consonant in one case and none in the other.”

And so we begin.
Bring your friends.

"While away the time,
not so far away,
thinking more in rhyme
more and more each day."
Snow

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Regarding:

Rhyme #1.

“The correspondence, in two or more words or verses, of terminal sounds beginning with an accented vowel, which, in modern English usage, must be preceded by different consonantal sounds, or by a consonant in one case and none in the other.”

I have no idea what you just said. either the flu has me sicker than I thought, or I am a real dunce.

so sorry to be a nuisance, Cat

When you fling poo, some of the stink sticks to you!

"The Book of Styx" can be ordered and purchased on line at:
http://eddystyx.mythramuse.com/

That explanation is a precise and technical voicing of the parameters.

Much more simply then... a proper rhyme is two like terminal vowel sounds (day/may) or two like terminal vowel and consonant sounds (mike/like) preceded by (and this is the important part) UNLIKE consonant sounds.
Meaning crawl/drawl does not rhyme... in a proper sense. Both like vowel sounds are preceded by "r". Technically that makes this assonance- the vowel sounds are alike, but preceded by like consonant sounds it is not a proper rhyme.
"Tear/bear" is a proper rhyme. We have like vowel sounds preceded by unlike consonants ("T"/"B").
PLEASE hit me with your questions.
Tonight I will lay out another type of rhyme, less common and we can start thinking about the first of our three poems which I would like to be at least a quatrain and utilizing (in a very strict sense) proper rhyme.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

fell/well are proper
what about

well / dwell
as they have the same vowel sound preceded by one consonant sound or none?

like what you've said here:
“The correspondence, in two or more words or verses, of terminal sounds beginning with an accented vowel, which, in modern English usage, must be preceded by different consonantal sounds, or by a consonant in one case and none in the other.”

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

if we have a word like ' beautiful' with which syllable should the rhyming be ?is this related to the masculine , feminine syllables?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Let me make amends.

Your suppositions in the comment two comments above is correct. Your two rhyming couplets are as you think they are.

As for which syllable do you "begin" the rhyme with, it depends on the word you will rhyme with it. "ab-so-lute/com-mi-nute" is masculine (the last syllable in the three syllable word is stressed- (ab-so-lute). If you begin the rhyme on only the last syllable- (beautiful/Istanbul), then it is a single rhyme.

If begun on the second to last (en-hance-ment/ad-vance-ment) and the stress is on the second to last syllable, it is feminine and double.

Back up one more syllable (a-gil-i-ty/fra-gil-i-ty), the stress returns to the last syllable making it masculine and three syllables are rhyming making this a triple rhyme. This is not the best of examples for a reason we have been discussing in this workshop. Can anyone tell me why?

Don't over think this Rula. It took me years to figure it out and you're making progress enough not to worry overmuch on this. As with all things we have broached together, you will master the concept.

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

VERY well explained sir . Thank you.But why it is not the best of examples , I will look for it and come back

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

well your previous lessons and found the answer I think ,
It is because -quoting your words-
"Beyond three syllables we run out of traditional terminology."
now I get your point..Thank you.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

at least a quatrain?
does that mean one or two rhymes? lol, just joking

i fear for my sanity
to find a proper rhyme
i always find approximates
i do it all the time

for sanity's sad loss i fear
when chasing a true rime
to find a proper one, not near
will take a bit of time

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

but then you're a little ahead of the gun (I wish I could bottle your energy level).
Everyone listen up-

Rule #1 of the rule list I have not yet created.
Yes, let's have at least a quatrain and two or three would be better.

Rule #2 of the rule list I have not yet created.
All lines must use a proper rhyme. Utilize an end stop rhyme placement and each word must have a rhyming buddy. Since I want to take care and not assume everyone in the workshop understands my terms- an end stop rhyme is a rhyme that comes at the end of a line whether it is a true end stop (which would be a period) or enjambment (carrying the thought uninterrupted from one line into the next).

I'm picking on your poem Judyanne because you're one of my moderators and you posted your first poem already (that's not a bad thing, everyone feel free to post your first poem, but there's no pressure just yet because I have some things I want to talk about before getting to the three poems.

Concerning your poem Judy- You are using an alternating rhyme sequence, therefore, in the first stanza, lines one and three must rhyme. They do not.

Let's have them rhyme everyone. All lines must rhyme.

Also, Rule #3 of the rule list I am seemingly now creating.
Please, no repetition and this goes for the entire poem not just stanzas, so "time" may appear only once.
My apologies for not issuing the rules early enough.
By the way, I particularly liked the spelling you used for rhyme (rime).
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

first stanza is near rhyme
(and i know the first and third lines don't rhyme - that was my point to you re my comment of one or two rhymes per quatrain.)..

second stanza is proper rime lol - so i had to use old spelling of rhyme for it to be true
i thought i was rather clever myself :)

but there is no way that is my poem wesley - i was just having some fun with true and approximate
xxxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

So I understand there's no problem in using an archic 'rime' with a modern English 'time'

rime/ time ?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

although i prefer not to do so if it is the only archaic word used in the poem...

but here i was really just having a bit of fun with the difference between approximate and true
lol - it is so much harder to write a decent poem when you are restricted to correct rhyme

but lol i have done it... not so sure it is decent, but it'll do :)
xxx

...so ... wesley, when do we submit our poems? i am too early am i?
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Everybody go for it. Just a simple demonstration of "proper" rhyme. One or two quatrains (I prefer two) with either couplets (line 1 rhymes with line 2, 3 with 4 and so on) or alternating (line 1 rhymes with line 3, line 2 with 4 and so on). It is of course nice if the poems are good, but the point is to determine if our few numbers definitively understand a "proper" rhyme.
Remember that a lot of this is just semantics. We need to understand the terminology so that we may communicate better as fellow poets. A "proper" rhyme has very strict parameters. It does not mean we will write every rhyming poem from now on with "proper" rhyme (in fact I hope we'll be doing some very strange stuff).

And Judyanne, I wholly agree that it does not work well to use a single archaic in a poem by itself unless that one archaic is used for a specific purpose (irony, humor), but you know me- anything written in English over the past five hundred years is fair game.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Rime also means the salt condensation left behind by evaporating sea water. If I'm not mistaken it also denotes the light covering of ice from a spray water. ..........stan

Sometimes called hoarfrost because of the excessively white, mottled look created by the ice freezing so fast. I only know this one because I used it in my big poem. I forgot why. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

My Norton's gives the same definition you gave for perfect rhyme. But this leaves the door open for exceptions. An example: prove and love. By sight they would qualify as full or true (there's 2 more names for perfect rhyme) rhyme but when spoken miss the mark.Then there's the rare instances in which a phrase is used to maintain perfect rhyme. example:
to fight her would be ineffectual
cause it's clear she's hen pecked you all.
So a definition that might work and also be simpler is any 2 words in which the last vowel and consonant cluster results in the same sound. And after all it's how a word sounds which counts the most in rhyme in my opinion.......stan

of this type of rhyme
i would allow it as approximate

but if we want to get down and boogie
"in | tell | ect| | u | al
hen | pecked | you | all
different syllable count affects the rhyme

tual / youall or tual / dyouall... would be assonant rhyme

I’m all for cheating with rhyme, as long as it is clever – and this is…– so I would say one should be able to get away with this

judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

that's why we should always read aloud any piece before we decide if we have
a perfect or near rhymes..

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

in any instance in which the sound is exact the rhyme is considered perfect regardless of the number of words used in obtaining it. If I'm wrong please let me know............stan

Now here's where it gets down and dirty.

The specifics governing single, double and triple rhymes can (I have done it too many times) be ripped all to hell. Exceptions tend to be the norm. The lines in question finish masculine- the accent is on the last (iambic) syllable. Stan has managed to (almost) rhyme four syllables back (in/hen doesn't quite cut it and we're picking through the nitty gritty in this workshop... as they say "know the rules, so you may break them").

Beyond three syllables we run out of traditional terminology. Therefore these lines are triple (or dactylic) rhymes.

This cannot be considered assonance because he has used like sounding consonants in his rhyming structure. Making an exception for the occasional like sounding consonantal verses (something we'll not do here) these lines cannot be assonance.

Comments?

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

The rhymes you spoke of give us something to address.
Listen up all.

In traditional rhymed verse, the rhyme is carried by the last foot of the line.
A rhyme that relies on a one syllable word is called a "semi-iamb" such as-

"Mike/trike"

But the usual iambic rhyming foot (also called single or masculine) comprises two syllables with the accent on the second.

"Between/serene"

A two syllable rhyming foot with the accent on the first syllable is "trochaic" (or double or feminine).

"Later/crater"
Please to note that my unlike consonant sound occurs at the beginning of the first syllable. The second syllable is preceded by a like consonant sound and still qualifies as a proper rhyme.

A triple or dactylic rhyming foot has three syllables with the accent on the first.

"Slenderest/tenderest"

With this in mind, which of these three descriptions best fits Stan's line that Beau pointed out?

You have twelve hours. No looking over shoulders. This is an open book test.

Go.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Don't wait for permission. You are a permanent member of any of my workshop, official or otherwise. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

i I ne I FEK I choo I ul 5 syllable but I believe we consider as 'dactylic'

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Do we really consider the last three syllables as Juddy did?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

I'm sorry Rula, I don't understand. Please elucidate. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I mean if the word is more than 3 syllables and the stress is at the middle of the word ,do we count this as dactyl ?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Sorry I'm slow on the uptake these days (three jobs and a new puppy... gets ya every time).

The chief characteristic we're concerned with in determining single, double or triple rhyme is whether the line ends feminine (the last syllable is unstressed) or it ends masculine (the last syllable is unstressed).

You were correct in choosing dactyl, but for the wrong reasons. Look to the end syllable and its stress (or lack thereof) to help you figure the rhyme type. It's not absolutely fool proof, but it will hold you in good stead most of the time.

wesley 

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

This feminine/masculine ending stuff is the central core of how rhyme types have been figured for several hundred years and one of the things I'm stressing in this workshop is semantics. It's tedious to many (even though it's one of the curious joys I have in understanding this stuff), but communication is very important when we start discussing the myriad of ways to describe meter/rhyme/poetic forms.

The best example of this particular problem I have is Arnold Schoenberg and his twelve tone musical annotation invention. When looking at written music developed over the centuries in Western music, he came to the same conclusion that most every musician has at one time or another- the system based on so called "Gregorian Chant" and codified by Bach and his peers is filled with cumbersome and over elaborate ways of writing music. Hence, he did what many other music theorists have done over the years (albeit with a little more success... very little)- he invented a new system. After several decades filled with some truly heinous music, he came to another conclusion- his system wasn't going to work because "that's not what they are using".

It's important therefore to use the language being spoken by the majority of poets when discussing how we analyze that poetry.
Does anyone else have some thoughts on this subject? I believe it to be central to our on going conversation.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

In a way poetry is as much a craft as an art. And all crafts have their own language. In construction one can say "A horizontal load bearing member supported at one end yet hanging past the support on the other end" or cantilever. If we decide to delve into a craft it behooves us to learn at least some of the craft specific language so as to be able to converse in a less tedious manner.............stan

As recent as two hundred years ago (and presently in some parts of the world) "love" and "prove" would have been pronounced precisely the same. In modern English however, they are generally not.
love = luv
prove =proov
I'm adding full and true to my list of names forthwith. Everyone take note, I may ask someone to count the names for "proper" rhyme talked about in this workshop.

Now, as to your last thought... a proper rhyme (in other words- to be able to call it a proper rhyme) the like sounds MUST be preceded by an unlike consonant. Otherwise we call it "imperfect" which is also a term shared by another rhyme type which is "half rhyme" in which the rhyming foot ends in one or more unaccented syllables, but only the stressed syllable has a match.
We could also call it assonance in which only the vowel sound matches, but that's a stretch as the terminal consonant also rhymes here.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

for the proper rhyme (Perfect, classic, traditional , full, true and authentic )

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

in | e | ffect| | u | al
hen | pecked | you | all
take the last three

fect / pecked – near rhyme
u / you - not considered true rhyme when missing a consonant
al / all – as above - I don’t really pronounce it quite the same, but would be happy to for comic sake

so – my answer - three syllables, -the emphasis on the words in-e- FFECT -u - al / hen - PECKED - you - all.
then this is dactyl approximate rhyme
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

And this is where the fun comes in. Do the rule makers mean that the rhyme is perfect when read aloud( this is My interpretation) or when read. One must keep in mind that poetry is more an auditory than written art...........stan

May I be allowed to join? THE WELL OF LIFE
by Ian Thomson
My Life, as far as I can tell,
Is like a stone dropped down a well.
It falls free, with uncaring speed,
Yet seems to hold all that I need.

But I know that quite soon the noise;
Those echoes of my woes and joys,
Will disappear like winter geese
As I, with weary splash, find peace.

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

And congratulations, all of your rhymes are flawless "proper" rhymes.

I will add you immediately and hope to see you often.

To all who are using the term "near rhyme" (sometimes me) to describe a rhyme that is not strictly "proper", please take note of this definition-

"In prosody, two words that have only their final consonant sounds and no preceding vowel or consonant sounds in common (such as stopped and wept, or parable and shell). The device was common in Welsh, Irish, and Icelandic verse years before it was first used in English by Henry Vaughan. It was not used regularly in English until Gerard Manley Hopkins and William Butler Yeats began to do so."

Because a large part of this exercise is concerned with semantics, meaning describing the different types of rhyme is orderly manner (god help us), we must take care not to use (at least here) convenient buzz terms for this and that. I propose that any rhyme not falling directly into a category that we understand at this stage be termed a- "maybe rhyme". It probably won't catch on, but it will signify that we're talking about a rhyme we don't have a name for just yet without using one already taken.

And just in case some of us missed this particular missive because it's new, but way up above... I repeat it here-

Everybody go for it (the first poem).
Just a simple demonstration of "proper" rhyme. One or two quatrains (I prefer two) with either couplets (line 1 rhymes with line 2, 3 with 4 and so on) or alternating (line 1 rhymes with line 3, line 2 with 4 and so on). It is of course nice if the poems are good, but the point is to determine if our few numbers definitively understand a "proper" rhyme.
Remember that a lot of this is just semantics. We need to understand the terminology so that we may communicate better as fellow poets. A "proper" rhyme has very strict parameters. It does not mean we will write every rhyming poem from now on with "proper" rhyme (in fact I hope we'll be doing some very strange stuff).

I'm giving Beau the go ahead to tell us what sort of rhyme Stan's was based on the single, double, triple information I offered, but I would love to hear some conversation on that subject before we go on. Tonight I will offer up a different type of rhyme. Anyone wanting to throw out some demonstration poetry, I hope you know you are welcome.

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I think you are pretty much right on Stan's set of rhymes. I think they are a triple rhyme, but I will also say that it's a tough one. A bit of a tongue twister trying to categorize it. I'm rather interested in hearing your take Beau.

Please.

Concerning the difficulty in analyzing the rhyme (and I think this is important to understand), just as meter, rhyme can be "scanned", "parsed", whatever you want to call it, in multiple ways. Therefore, only a scant few of the rhyme types I will introduce here are cut and dried.

In the category of "cut and dried" is initial rhyme, but even this has pitfalls.

Initial rhyme is, quite simply, a rhyme that occurs at the beginning of a verse rather than the middle (interior rhyme) or the end (end rhyme). The pitfall comes with confusing "initial rhyme" with alliteration, sometimes called head rhyme.

Alliteration is the repetition of the same sounds or of the same kinds of sounds at the beginning of words or in stressed syllables, as in "on scrolls of silver snowy sentences" (Hart Crane). Modern alliteration is predominantly consonantal; certain literary traditions, such as Old English verse, also alliterate using vowel sounds.

This is not initial rhyme.

To accomplish initial rhyme, just bloody rhyme the first word in two sentences and be done with it.

If we would dig our pitfalls deeper we might use interior or internal rhyme. This is often confused with cross rhyme. Internal rhyme (that's the word I will stick to because it's what I grew up with) is most commonly referring to rhyming words in separate verses that occur inside the line. One could stop right there and probably pass the internal rhyming test, but I have read multiple examples and read multiple explanations that insist the rhyming sounds must occur at the same metric location in the verse.

Dream mir/rors fog / to black / ened back

Reflec / tion’s bog / masks heart’s / ransack. (Snow)

Cross rhyming occurs when a rhyming sound at the end of one line matches a sound  somewhere inside another.

These are a few more rhymes to consider when preparing your second poem (I still would very much like to see some more attempts at our first poem. Not everyone has submitted and I want to know that everyone understands the distinctions that make proper rhyme). For our second poem I will insist on two quatrains with one of the more esoteric rhyme types and since those are still coming, I won't pressure anyone to write a second poem until we have more to choose from.

But just so everyone has something to do in this laid back workshop beside listening to me ramble-

I would like everyone to give me a few thoughts on what they think identicals are.

wesley

 

 

 

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

identical rhyme is the repetition of the same word in the rhyme position

does it also refer to couplings such as
way / weigh
need / kneed
so / sew
no / know
??

xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Identicals are generally words producing the same sound, but reaching it with different spelling. Seldom is it merely the repetition of the same word.
Well done.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Can't submit to stream yet (the one per day thing) so here's my shorty

WHERE THE HEART IS

After many years of roamin'
from coast to coast and the deep south
this is the land I make my home in
at the Twelve Mile river's mouth

In sight of eastern great divide
where highest ridges appear blue
here in the foothills I reside
and shall until my days are through

This should give us something to discuss as far as what is and isn't perfect rhyme..........stan

... to give the most unorthodox rhymes in the workshop.

I'm sorry Stan, there can be no debate. Your rhymes are all (prim and) proper. And just plain cool.

I particularly liked appear blueare through

Well done. You're right when you say you're a rhymer from way back when.

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

we all know that

don't want to be picky, but of interest would like to draw attention to this interpretation wes...

A rhyme is not classified as a rhyme if one of the words being rhymed is the entirety of the other word (for example, Ball and all).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming#Perfect_rhymes

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

... you are absolutely correct. In such a case it is a "maybe" rhyme (my word remember?). Many would call it "near rhyme", but I avoid that term because it covers far too many cases depending on who one speaks to.

So, it is not a rhyme, certainly not a proper rhyme... technically speaking.
Good call Judy.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

We also have submitted in the stream our poems (me and Juddy) have you abandoned us :(

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

When I attempted to submit the above to stream yesterday the one per day limit kept me from doing so (it had only been 21 hours lol) My schedule thus forced me to either wait 'till next day or put it here. But I'm going to stream it now.........stan

I will be the first to confess to being an avid (rabid... that rhymes) rhymer. If a poem does not rhyme, to my ear it simply seems to be missing something. However, there are a few rhyme types that, although used regularly through historical poetry (try reading Keats and not trip on this next one), does not strike me as a valid rhyme structure as much as a way to describe with terminology an ugly or accidental rhyme. This is not always the case, but it appears that way all too often.

The first of these two is a smothered rhyme (also called imperfect rhyme). It occurs when matching an unaccented syllable with an accented syllable. Bring/goinghardly/foresee.

Count on this- when we write our third poem and I come to assigning one of the rhyme types to a poet, this will be included. Let us say, I shall give it to the poet who participates in our discussions the least.

Another rhyme in this category of less than useful rhyme types is unaccented rhyme.The match here is between the final unaccented syllables. Note that some feminine or dactyl rhymes can appear to be unaccented rhymes, but a true unaccented rhyme tends to rely only on two syllable words.

Faster/mover/killer or happy/pretty/chummy.

Even my Penguin Rhyming Dictionary, which has no poet's craft book per se and offers no advice on how, when or what to use when we rhyme tells me that these rhymes should be avoided.

I will likely not assign these as they are too easy by far.

There are more rhyme types to come. I desired to "expose" everyone here to virtually every type of rhyme known, so it will likely never end, however I believe we have more than enough to give our second poem a go.

It should be two quatrains and utilize one of our more outlandish rhyme schemes. Poet's choice. The traditional endline proper rhyme format is not accepted. This is not a high voltage workshop guys, so throw some caution to the wind and experiment with something truly out of your comfort zone. 

Don't worry about failing... we never do when we try.

wesley

 

 

 

 

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

a question
semantics 'true', 'perfect', 'rich'
words like green/ serene, with the different spellings of the same sound, seem to be differentiated by some as ‘rich rhyme’ – still under the guise of ‘perfect’
rhymes such as like / bike, see/ tree are in a category of their own, they are labelled differently by different theorists, but usually ‘true’, and are also 'perfect'
… so using this vernacular to be able to diferentiate the two 'perfect' rhymes -
a poem in which all rhymes are ‘true’ has a particular name which I saw once in my research but forgot to earmark and now cannot find
does anyone know?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
now, just some thoughts I found and would like to share
Rhyme has semantic significance. It “brings us back to the preceding line … and holds together all the lines forming a single thought”
(V. V. Mayakovsky, Poln. sobr. soch., vol. 12, 1959, p. 235).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perfect rhymes
Perfect rhymes can be classified according to the number of syllables included in the rhyme, which is dictated by the location of the final stressed syllable.

....... masculine: a rhyme in which the stress is on the final syllable of the words (rhyme, sublime)

....... feminine: a rhyme in which the stress is on the penultimate (second from last) syllable of the words (picky, tricky)

.......dactylic: a rhyme in which the stress is on the antepenultimate (third from last) syllable (cacophonies, Aristophanes)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

General rhymes
In the general sense, general rhyme can refer to various kinds of phonetic similarity between words, and to the use of such similar-sounding words in organizing verse. Rhymes in this general sense are classified according to the degree and manner of the phonetic similarity:

..........syllabic: a rhyme in which the last syllable of each word sounds the same but does not necessarily contain vowels. (cleaver, silver, or pitter, patter)

........ imperfect (or near): a rhyme between a stressed and an unstressed syllable. (wing, caring)

........weak (or unaccented): a rhyme between two sets of one or more unstressed syllables. (hammer, carpenter)

....... semirhyme: a rhyme with an extra syllable on one word. (bend, ending)

......forced (or oblique): a rhyme with an imperfect match in sound. (green, fiend; one, thumb)

......assonance: matching vowels. (shake, hate) Assonance is sometimes used to refer to slant rhymes.

......consonance: matching consonants. (rabies, robbers)

...... half rhyme (or slant rhyme): matching final consonants. (bent, ant)

...... pararhyme: all consonants match. (tell, tall)

...... alliteration (or head rhyme): matching initial consonants. (short, ship)

...... identical rhyme", in which not only the vowels but also the onsets of the rhyming syllables are identical, as in gun and begun. Punning rhymes such are "bare" and "bear" are also identical rhymes. The rhyme may of course extend even farther back than the last stressed vowel. If it extends all the way to the beginning of the line, so that there are two lines that sound identical, then it is called a "holorhyme" ("For I scream/For ice cream").

A rhyme is not classified as a rhyme if one of the words being rhymed is the entirety of the other word (for example, Ball and all).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyming#Perfect_rhymes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

and B Strange, great rhyme without end-rhyme there, as you say using many variations
great rhythm, i feel the rhythm is more important with this type of rhyming than any other.... one thing 'no life left hear' - do you mean 'here' or 'to hear'?
love judy
xx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

i'm not a fan of rap - but my sons' and grandsons' friends sometimes come up with something i think is absolutely perfect - so go figure...
love judy
xxxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I feel as though I am starting to drown in a swamp of rhymes, near-rhymes and non-rhymes. Words that look like rhymes but aren't and words that don't look like rhymes but are.

The fox kept kickin' chicken-licken,
Wouldn't fight him fair
So in stepped Bruno(you know who, no
Fox, but grizzly bear)

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

you need to call the Hallmark people. You have a lucrative career waiting for.
Internal rhyme, a triple and a double, rock on.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

but i wonder...
are bear and fair true rhymes? - they sound identical to my ear

i love
'...kickin' chicken-licken,
..Bruno (you know who, no
fox...'

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Not sure what you mean Judy. They DO sound identical absent the leading consonant.
Could you elucidate?
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

no idea where my mind was at here wes - i think i was expecting tam to be writing near rhyme as that is where we were in the conversation....
i have had a break - maybe won't be so tired now and will be saying a few less stupid things...
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I am not sure about any of these but though I'd share
(internal rhyme I think)

I'd live this life to love
and give it more life to live
and if again I become alive
I'd give my love a life :)

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

The two "life" and "give" rhyming with the other just like them as your internal rhyme doesn't work as it is, for they are "identical" identicals. They are exactly the same words and not words that are exactly the same SOUND, but with different spelling and meaning which is the definition of identical.

alīve is spoken with a long "I", while liv is not.

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Rhyming of two words within the same line of poetry.

you have here internal consonant rhyme I think rula
and maybe more alliteration and identical rhyme
lol – I’m truly not sure...

internal rhyme, for example, Poe’s “The Raven” :
'Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore'


we'll await wesley's adjudication :)
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

When rhyme confuse me I just trust my ear............stan

I am sorry I have not been here. I am very sick. I have a cold/flue virus which is bordering on bronchitis. for the past few days I have been coughing my brains out, throwing up and trying to sleep in between. Doctor says it is something going around and lasts a few weeks. With my constitution, I may have it longer. So I find I must drop out of the workshop. I apologize to all.

always, Cat

When you fling poo, some of the stink sticks to you!

"The Book of Styx" can be ordered and purchased on line at:
http://eddystyx.mythramuse.com/

so sorry to hear you haven't been able to easily shake this bug...
i think it must be a world-wide one... there are people in my part of the world sick with what sounds to be the same thing

sorry you'll miss this, you would have been an asset here, even though you might not yet realise it, you have a natural rhythm and rhyme to your writes

anyway, we'll miss you so get better soon
lots of healing love being sent your way
hugs
judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Scots remedy for whatever ails you

1; 40 ml. of good single malt whisky
2; 200ml. of hot water
3; 2 large tablespoons of honey

dissolve the honey in the hot water, adjust quantities to taste .
Pour whisky into honied water
drink and retire to bed.

get well soon
Ian xx

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

Southern cure :
ingredients- 1 quart of moonshine (preferably in a mason jar), honey, 1 peppermint stick, 1 angry wasp
directions- Remove lid from mason jar and take one large swallow, mix 1 teaspoon of honey with one fourth of ground peppermint stick and swallow, allow wasp to sting you. Repeat until you no longer can feel wasp sting. Won't cure the illness but makes it where you no longer Care that you're sick.............stan

Health trumps workshops every time. And be careful about coughing your brains out. I did that once and the results are as you see lol.....................stan

I still am not sure about our 2nd assignment. Should it have a feminine/masculine ending all through?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Though I am relatively new to Neopoet, I am genuinely interested in this workshop if you will have me.
Tommi

Tommi Cordial

Dawn breaks over marble head...

just jump on in
wes will add you to the list when he comes around again

tell us one of the reasons you think poets write in rhyme
and then submit your two (at least) quatrains of 'perfect' end -rhyme

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

sorry to take so long to get to you. I am adding you now. Read through the comments (if you haven't already) and it will get you caught up.
You are very welcome here.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

It took me an hour to read all the comments and
it will take much longer to get a handle on.

I believe folks rhyme mainly because it helps to
hear and feel the music in language, also it helps
involve an audience or reader, much easier to hear
the music in a rhyming poem than a free form poem,
but the music of language isn't just rhyme.

Richard

but rhyme has to be subtle. imo, the greatest rhyming poems are those where the rhyme is not really noticed, but acts as a reminder for the previous line(s)

or, in comedy especially, where the rhyme is as a surprise, something not expected

and no, i agree - the music of language is not rhyme - it is rhythm, and how the words sound off the tongue

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I went through all the comments. This workshop really is amazing. I got my first poem done, but I'll have to wait, as I posted something last night. Late last night.

This should help me with the long poem I'm working on. Still not forgiving myself for the suffice/Justice rhyme.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

rhyme has a way of making poetry very beautiful. Sort of heightens the senses especially when it's good. Something like sounding perfect notes in music. Strikes a chord.

One of my favourite is something I got from texts in Norse mythology; one of my favourite couplets:

Thrice pronounced, in accents dread,
the thrilling verse that wakes the dead.

So does it take more skill to make free verse more memorable?

and just to make sure I was following, I'll be a little brave and try to classify the couplet above. It should not be perfect rhyme, because the rhyming words dread/dead begin with the same consonant, though they sound slightly different.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

great to have you aboard
i so agree with you re rhyme and music

as for your classification of the couplet, i would say it is perfect rhyme as, although each word begins with the same consonant - 'd', 'dread has an 'r' before the rhyming vowels
D-ead
DR-ead
- at least that's how i would interpret it

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I thought so too, Judy.

Was sort of a little dilemma, but I agree with you.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

As do I. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

There seems to be a bit of variance in defining what is and is not perfect rhyme. And I find it hard to believe I'm the one who has pointed it out as unread on the technical aspects of poetry as I am. But since poetry is an art form in which sound takes precedence (at least in my opinion), I think that I'll stick with the Norton definition. It seems to better fit Occam's razor definition of what determines which of two things is true................stan

you are defeating the purpose of this workship stan
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Far from it. I am merely showing that in this as in almost all art forms there is room for more than one opinion. I am Not saying the definition as put forth by others is wrong, just that there also exist other accepted definitions. Kinda like spelling potato. Some spell it potato and others spell it potatoe and both are right and neither is wrong lol........stan

The point here as i understand it is, Wesley wants us to be aware that there is ‘pure’ rhyme along with ‘perfect’ rhyme. Not for sake of argument (for the schools of thought exist - of that there is no doubt) but for sake of interest…
cheers
judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

lol

i wrote a ditty for my signature to advertise it, but as per usual, it got a little long....
and then i couldn't work out how to put it on my signature anyway :)

Let’s join with Wesley in crime time with rhyme
Let’s be common or proper or perfect
or macaronic, for symbolism and sign
... we won’t emerge any near expert
but if we discuss this intriguing discourse
with its approximates, sometimes oblique
I guarantee, having completed the course
we all will be able to cheat

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

"..., having completed the course
we all will be able to cheat"

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

The greatest part of learning the rules is the exactitude if how to break those rules.

Ron
Blue Demon77

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

As I stir this old cauldron of rhymes,
My mind drifts back to happier times,
When a posse of poets
Would lynch free verse "no wits"
Oh, was that not the best, just sublime!

Ian

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

Those are both A-1 funny poems. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

or maybe I thought I posted it and didn't.

Assignment number two is write ONE OR TWO quatrains using ONE OR TWO of our previously discussed rhyme types (or use one that has not been listed and take the time to describe it to the workshop).

Back to Stan's point of view.
All of you may be slightly confused when I say that I agree with him... to a point.

What I have defined as "proper" rhyme (remember "proper is only the name out of many I have arbitrarily assigned to refer to authentic, pure, classic... ad nausea) is the versions codified by the poetry community since about the time of Chaucer. Stan's point however, is that poetry is a living art form. Thence, it never keeps it's form. It is always changing.
As an example take Baroque music. Although that genera of music is still played and enjoyed, it is not experienced and studied by a large enough number of people to consider it a living art form. Essentially, its books are closed. Some day that may change and enough people worldwide will understand and experiment with it to consider it living, but for now that is not true.
Poetry is alive.
Poetry is changing.

Now, the position Stan makes about poetry being predominately based on sound, that it is spoken more than written I must disagree. I believe that far more people write poetry than speak it aloud.
Among all of my acquaintances, I know of no one single individual who reads or listens to poetry read aloud on even the most infrequent occasions. I know this to be true because I have asked nearly all of them. However, I know of six who write poetry on at least a semi regular basis.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

As for Stan and his comments defeating the purpose of this workshop, I fear I must respectfully disagree. Indeed, he exemplifies it. This is a workshop (or clinic, call it what you will). Not only are differing comments acceptable, they are encouraged.
This is not a mentor environment in which an individual is attempting to pass on information specific to the instructor to a single protege.
This is a collection of poets seeking varyied, informed commentary for the purpose of expanding one's base of understanding.
I also have references that inform of the perspective I am stressing- Webster's New World Dictionary, Words to Rhyme With by Espy, The Poet's Craft Book by Wood, Wiki-pedia, the Universities of Illinois and Florida's Literature Departments and many, many more including Chaucer himself.
Nevertheless, there will be, nay MUST be a differing of opinion on virtually each subject or how else shall we grow?
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

what i said to stan is that lookijg at one school of thought ONLY, defeats the purpose of the workshop
cheers
judy

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I feel rhyme is used to help meter the rythm of a rhyme and also to make it memorable.i fee it also gives the poem stucure.

Tommi Cordial

Dawn breaks over marble head...

I feel rhyme is used to help meter the rythm of a rhyme and also to make it memorable.i fee it also gives the poem stucure.

Tommi Cordial

Dawn breaks over marble head...

Hmm.......rhyme gives a poem structure.........this might be a which came first the chicken or the egg. I wonder if it's the rhyme which gives structure of if it merely enhances the already existing structure. But I think I see your point as when one decides to write a rhyming poem the poem is then written to accomodate these rhymes.
But there are forms such as blank verse which have exact structure without rhyme and rhyming doesn't guarantee good structure:
Here is a short poem with rhyme
but the structure or form is pretty much lacking
happens all the time
to poets like myself whose meter skills are miserably slacking.........................stan

I take off my hat to Wes Snow
Poor guy puts this group in the know.
Try so hard to rhyme couplets,
My brain squeezed out droplets
Of creative juices, they flow.

Ian

TIME FLIES LIKE AN ARROW, BUT FRUIT FLIES LIKE A BANANA

i cannot figure out how to "apply" for this workshop

I would love to join your rhyme workshop if only you’d have me
I believe that it is one of the best because rhyming in my eyes is key.
You need to express how you do best however need may be.
If its rhyming if its criming even rocky mountain climbing whatever helps us see.
But I feel rhyming is a great form of art for it shows true tact and skill.
It’s important to be able to express yourself in different ways and tell people how you feel.
Poetry relieves great stress even though I’m not so good.
It makes me happy and feel worry free just the way I think art should.
And so I ask to join your pack of rhymers here today.
So please accept my kind request so I too then can play!

You can send Wesley a private message so he'll add you to the workshop. And then you get started with the first assignment: a quatrain or two of proper rhyme (refer to comments for details) and then you add the poem tot he workshop.

But contact Wesley.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

thank you wsg! much appreciated

I just posted my second assignment: internal rhyme, but somehow I feel I cheated. Each line can be split in the middle to form a couplet in (almost) perfect rhyme.

Is that allowed as internal rhyme? Sort of reminds me of Poe's "The Raven"...

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

Internal rhyme does not necessarily need to "arrive" at an even position in the lines. Used in an eight foot line with the internal rhyme occurring at the fourth foot, then you're absolutely correct to think that it would "sound" like a poem written in tetrameter.
Instead, the internal rhyme needs to be used almost like a collection of "random" rhymes and placed throughout the poem in different locations. I'll have to get back to you after I've looked into it, but one of our own (I think) has written just such an example in this workshop. I can't remember who! Damn I'm old.
It should be used to make "arrivals" more pointed. Also, don't feel that internal (or interior rhyme, so many different names for the same stupid thing) must be a single rhyme inside of a verse. For example I point you to the master of repetitive, internal rhyme-
Dr. Suess.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Shall the sun of peace
Shine upon the darkened world to
Wipe 'way the mist of miseries
without too much delay!

Today's not hopeful but for
Tomorrow we need to pray
Please God take 'way the curse,
bring beams of peace through

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

I said in the beginning we would not specifically talk about assonance and consonance because these subjects have been covered elsewhere recently.

However, they both have "rhyme buddies" that mimic their effect. Now, this is another beaut that will start an argument, so let me say from the get go that this particular perspective is first and last... semantics. It is nothing more than naming a specific use of language so that we may communicate. For the most part, my references are the old guys Wood (d. 1933) and Espy (d. 1982).

Consonantal Rhyme (unlike alliteration and consonance) generally uses only the last consonant "sound" as a match for rhyme. This is true whether the syllable is stressed or unstressed.

busy/easy; fast/waste

When using vowel rhyme it becomes demonstrably easier than the use of assonance (which can most simply be described as the echo of a vowel sound throughout a given verse). Vowel rhyme simply produces a matching vowel sound in the rhyming syllables. 

age/rail/take; blue/move/flute

Tomorrow I will lay out the instructions for our main poem. There are still a number of rhyme types I would like to discuss, so I may have many more types to assign to our participants.

To our late comers and newbies, I would like to say relax. This is a laid back workshop and you have plenty of time to catch up.

Please read the syllabus and above all join in the conversation.

wesley

 

 

 

 

 

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

 

The workshop as initially conceived had as its purpose the goal of exposing the participants to as wide an array of rhyme types as possible with a secondary goal of ensuring each poet’s understanding of “proper” rhyme (that maddening thing called also authentic, true, perfect… blah, blah, blah).

In the end I wanted to challenge each poet to write a poem using two different rhyme types neither of which were to be “proper”- the first chosen by the participant, the second assigned by me.

A priority to me was to keep the workshop low key as to actual writing (there is a great deal going on at NeoPoet right now demanding attention) leaving the opportunity for discussion (read argument) over the rhyme types and their parameters set by me.

Due to the abundance of “internal” (also interior) rhyme in the second assignment, I am opting to formulate a “rhyming puzzle” instead that everyone will make use of the more esoteric rhyme types and in producing the same formula, aid in discussion (debate, argument, you get the picture) over their use.

 

I am asking the participants to write a poem of four quatrains.

As the demands on rhyme will be great, I suggest the poem be written in “iamb” with any meter length, but this is by no means required. If the poet wishes to write in anapest- more power to him/her.

The first will use end stop rhyme in an envelope form (using the letter formula that traditionally describes rhyme schemes, an envelope is denoted as being “a, b, b, a” or verse one will match verse four while verses two and three match). These rhymes will be “identicals”- a match of both vowel and consonant, but with different spelling and meaning.

 

The second quatrain will use an alternating scheme (a, b, a, b) and employ triple rhymes. A triple (or dactylic) rhyme has three syllables with the accent on the first. The placement of these rhymes will be “initial” (placed at the beginning of the verse rather than the end).

 

The third quatrain will have as its scheme the type of rhyme used. “Cross rhyme” is when the rhyming sound at the end of one line is matched inside another or (in our puzzle please) the next. Therefore- the sound at the end of verse one is matched by a sound within the second, the sound at the end of the third will rhyme within the fourth.

And finally the fourth quatrain will utilize two rhyme types we have not previously touched upon, but that were saved for the last. The first to be used in this quatrain is “random” rhyme which is anything but random. Random rhyme goes beyond the constraints of alternating rhymes and mixes them “artfully” throughout the poem (or in our case, the quatrain). This is not simply the throwing about of matching words. It is using rhyme to accentuate specific patterns and ideas. This should demand the most artful application of rhyme in the poem and one that could all too easily be cheated upon. I have hope this will generate a thoughtful debate among us.

The last is not required, but I would like to see each make the attempt.

It is the “mind rhyme”.

I use Wikipedia to explain for me-

Mind rhyme is a kind of substitution rhyme similar to rhyming slang, but it is less codified. In mind rhyme, an intended word remains unsaid, and is “heard” only in the listener’s mind. For instance, in this traditional example:

"Roses are red and ready for plucking / She’s sixteen and ready for high school."

Above all else I trust these final poems will continue our debate on rhyme types.

wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

this one is kind of tough. For the first quatrain, I got the words give/thrive/drive/live. I want to be sure I got the "match of both vowel and consonant, but with different spelling and meaning." right.

It's in the envelope rhyme scheme, so give goes with live, and thrive, with drive.

The second bit I want to be clear on is this: are we writing four distinct poems, or one poem that boldly does it all?

The third quatrain: you seemed to define Cross Rhyme in terms of verses, not lines. From what I get, the cross rhyme can be achieved with all four verses. I don't yet see how I can get it done with just q. 3. But I'l take a deeper look.

Lastly, the optional last one, mind rhyme looks a lot like using metaphors and allusions.

But I'll think about it all and come back later. I'm already stuck on the second :(

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

Now, the "identicals" are called identical because they are identical. Your four words are just imperfect rhymes. An example of an identical would be- "prays/praise". Get it?

Remember that a "verse" is a single line of poetry. That's all. Nothing fancy. Just one line of poetry is called a "verse". Sorry to throw you with the semantics, but that's one of my goals in this shop. To teach the words we use to describe stuff in poetry.
I organized the cross rhyme the way I did to make it easier. Yes, we can use a rhyming match in the middle of each line, but that becomes dangerously like "interior" or "random" rhyme. So, I gave the easy way out. Stick a rhyme on the end of a "verse" then cross it in the middle of the next.
As to the "mind rhyme"- don't give it more importance than it deserves. You simply set the reader up to "hear" a specific word and throw a wrench at them when you use another. "Shave and a haircut, twenty five cents".
Understand, whether the poem can be achieved or not, you are succeeding in what I intended. You are giving thought to some oddball, esoteric rhyme structures that you normally wouldn't give the time of day to.
I win.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Where do you want the mind rhyme placed? Witin one of the 1st 4 stanzas or in a 5th?.........stan

I picked a fine time to return from a short sabbatical lol. As to poem :
I'll try my best to write it
but I'll tell you now it's hard as .....................lol............stan

if the attempt is made, I achieve what I set out to do. I got Stan Holliday (is that one "L" or two?) to ponder some weird ass types of rhyme that he's know of, but seldom gave much thought to.
Victory Snow.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

and I'm not sure if it has been touched yet. How do you deal with various tenses plural forms and anything that changes the ending of a word only slightly, like this:

"When William one day returns
to see his wicker houses burn"

Would I have to change the poem to something like this, to make it proper rhyme?

"Would William one day return
to see his wicker houses burn?".

The concern here is that the meaning of the poem has changed (albeit slightly, but change nonetheless).

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

Yes you would. As they are, they're near rhymes. But sometimes a near rhyme is best at conveying what you mean so don't feel all rhymes need be perfect or proper............stan

Exactly. In an exercise we're dotting "I's", but when we write- the poem is the thing. The important part is to understand that you're bending or breaking a rule so you don't do it uninformed. An uninformed decision often puts something on the page that makes sense to the poet, but is embarrassingly stupid to the reader. KNOWING where and how you break things enables you to avoid the sloppies.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

A thought occurred to me while contemplating
the first quatrain, there are some words that, while
spelled the same, used differently in a sentence mean
something entirely different. For instance;

They say there are still diamonds in that mine,
but alas, far too deep, so they'd never be mine.

Would these be considered identicals or do they
fall under something else?

and tough enough.Let's go back to sonnets:-)

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

coming up soon, Rula

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Thanks for the warning Jess. I now can prepare a place in which I can hide from the cursed things lol........stan

and participants. I've been following but circumstances have prevented me from contributing much.

I'm especially glad you are teaching how to break the rules as well, that is critical.

I came across this stanza while re-reading some of Byron's "Don Juan" the other day-

"And then he swore; and, sighing, on he slipp'd
A pair of trousers of flesh-colour'd silk;
Next with a virgin zone he was equipp'd,
Which girt a slight chemise as white as milk;
But tugging on his petticoat, he tripp'd,
Which—as we say—or, as the Scotch say, whilk
(The rhyme obliges me to this; sometimes
Monarchs are less imperative than rhymes)—"

Rhyme- slave or master? whim, tool or rule?

It also strikes me here and in the meter workshops that it's a bloody damn shame we can't post sound anymore. It would help a lot. Perhaps we could discuss in the Workshops Team how to use Youtube or something similar in conjunction with these workshops.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Poor old Wesley's computer has dropped dead so Judyanne and Stan will be finishing off the workshop.

Please make sure you have finished all 3 exercises and critiqued everyone else's postings at
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/8689

Remember to put the workshop name and exercise number in the title, please edit them if you haven't already done so, it really helps when giving feedback,

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I want herein to thank him and express my gratitude for this excellent workshop. Of course I wished it would go longer and had more discussions but I also understand all the conditions that Wesley is going through. I appreciate every single comment and lesson that he offered despite having much limited time because of all life's duties.

I also like to thank Juddyanne and Stan for giving the hand and the time to comment on almost every ex. posted here in the workshop. It is much appreciated .

Again I can't wait to participate in the coming workshops whatever it is ..
Thanks Neopoet for teaching for free . No other place would offer what you do.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

We will be trying to wrap this shop up by July 29. So if you have not yet submitted all your stuff please do so in the next few days so all will time to comment.......................stan

There has been a lot of time in this shop spent on types of rhyme seldom used by writers not only now but also in earlier times. In reality the majority of rhyming poetry is written with end rhyme and occasional near rhyme.So let's extend the shop one more week (until about August 8) and all submit a simple rhyming poem of our own choice as far as form, pattern or type of rhyme used. Heck, even free verse as long as it contains some type rhyme. We must never forget that this is supposed to be FUN so let's let it all hang out and see what we've learned here....................stan PS don't forget to identify your poem as a rhyme crime poem in the title block

go back to the poems you have submitted to this workshop and edit the title to say which exercise it is. I am feeling lost and retarded and would love to give critical informed feedback.

Yes, there is still a lot of valuable work to be done here.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

It is true that everyone lost their poetry a bit towards the end but that doesn't matter a pinch of shit!

I have seen each and every participant grow not just in your work here but unconsciously, or perhaps consciously, it has seeped into your own writes.

Wesley designed a superb workshop and I can't wait till he gets back to see the results of his creative teaching.

Kudos to all of you.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

don't take that last comment of mine as indicating an end of the workshop!

Judy, Stan and I are still on the job, as so should the rest of you be, if you have any new submissions, make sure you post a note here on the thread so we see them and can give feedback. And don't rely on us, this is still Neopoet, you must give feedback to each other.

But we will have to wind it up soon so get your arses into gear.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

since there have been no new postings in the last few days. Hope you all look in on Stan's Rhyme Patterns for associated themes.

Well done everyone.

Special thanks to Wesley, a huge amount of work and knowledge went into this, it is much appreciated.

If you have any comments or suggestions about the workshop post them here or PM me or Wesley.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

(c) Neopoet.com. No copyright is claimed by Neopoet to original member content.