About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

To join a workshop, first find one that is of interest to you. Once you have found the right workshop (and verified that it is open -- you can find this out in the description below), you can apply to join the workshop.


Join the Neopoet online poetry workshop and community to improve as a writer, meet fellow poets, and showcase your work. Sign up, submit your poetry, and get started.

Critique For New And Old

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description: An introduction to critique for new members and a reminder to long time members that critique is what Neopoet is all about, join in!

Leader: weirdelf
Moderator: c lynn brooks

Objectives: To help poets help each other through constructive feedback. To help redefine the meaning of 'critique' if it has negative connotations for you.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: We will assign each participant a poem from the 'Undiscovered Works' list to critique. This is challenging, yes, there is a reason each poem has gone uncommented on. Your challenge is to find something good to say about the poem; to give reasons why it has gone 'Undiscovered' and to find ways to improve it. Then on this thread we will critique each others critiques.

Yes, it's a challenge! But that is the entirety of our reason for being, to be generous and courageous in spirit in helping each other improve our craft.

We will start with a discussion on the nature of critique, how to be honest without being abusive. How to be helpful without being destructive. Find the parameters for how far suggestions should go and what is acceptable.

Length: 
17 days
Number of participants (limit): 
50 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Thursday, January 16, 2020 to Sunday, February 2, 2020
Short description: 
Good critique

Comments

me in

and welcome to the fray!

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

critique in the 2 workshops I host are very different. In the older group, average age 70, the focus is on the craft first. In the other, average age 25, the focus is on content first. We need to find a middle ground. No easy task. But count me in to try and help.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

I'm really out of the loop. Are these in-person workshops? If you ever have the time/energy, I'd love to know more about them, especially how you got involved.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Methinks this one might get a little warm before we even get to a'crittin'.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Hope to learn something. ~ Geezer.
.

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

I'm still kinda new here. But I'll give it a shot!

Write for fun, or for the love of writing!
But just write for you!

and welcome.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Here! You can count me in. I'll contribute as much as I can. That will fluctuate from week to week, but I'll be here.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

appreciated

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I will give it a shot

you are most welcome.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

First how about you initial summations of how good critique should work, please keep them brief, up to about 100 words should suffice. Perhaps some lively debate will attract some more participant, especially amongst our newer members.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

That is especially gratifying to me for, as you know, I've always regarded meter as the single most important prosodic element and have driven myself, and others, nearly mad trying to teach it in workshops [grins]

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

jess i think this has reached the limit for participants. if not add me please

you are added and most welcome.

What's your 'first take' on critique?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I believe a good critique should suggest not demand, corrections also suggest where they think another word or phrase might be appropriate and most of all to not forget you are makiing a crtique on the poem and not the author

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

i have had excellent and gentle critique and scathing harsh screaming lol. i learned from both. but i admit i prefer a more gentle touch. just don't ask me to send you the pen and the paper i wrote the poem on so you can tear up the paper and stab it with the pen

I usually use the "sandwich" method. I find something good to say then place the suggestion for change in between two good things. eg. "I really liked the subject of your poem but the 3rd stanza is unclear as to intent. But the poem flows well". This allows the writer to pad his suggestion which makes it less likely to offend the writer.

Could I join?

you have been added

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

!- SOUND I try to read a poem out loud in my head (or out loud). It's different that reading prose. I first try to hear the pace,meter or sound of the poem. Poetry is to sound as color is to painting. Often in blank verse I put drum to it, to catch the flow of words.To me sound, rhythm, is what separates poetry from prose. So if the meter goes all over the place, or is all iambic like a nursery rhyme,I'm out.
2- SHAPE- lines must have purpose, have a reason to be line other than it is broken to look like poetry. Meter, rhyme, and idea can be enough for a line. It needs a reason to exist in showing us how to read the poem, how to take breaks.
3-CONTENT- I need to feel on the first reading I have an idea of what the poem is about. If I immediately am lost,because the poet is being obscure, hiding his meanings in layers and layers, i blame the poet for failing to include me, and if the poet doesn't care, neither do I. The poem must relay something of its soul on the first read. Then you can dig in and get to the many other inferences and meanings, Likewise. if the poem feels cliche, contrived, on the first read...it probably is.
I look for poems that find that sweet point between giving not enough or too much. You leave the plate feeling both full and hungry at the same time.

This is what I bring to the comments I make. I try to do so politely, with praise for what works in a poem, we all have public and private ways we comment. After your 10,000 hours of reading (a decade or two of reading poems) you can spot the level a person is writing on, like a musician or athlete. You have to tenure your comment to that level.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

A great summing up of how to read a poem and think about its merits. Agree.

That I wonder if you could pare it down to bare essentials for us to use as a 'Curated Reference'.

I ask for the paring down because in my experience poets don't like reading much, besides poetry.

As to private feedback I really don't recommend it. Anything you have to say you should be able to say publicly. There have been complaints.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

like almost everything that could be said about giving critique has been said; but I will add my two cents. I always read it out loud. That is where I get the sense of rhythm. I try to be kind, [especially if they have hit the [please be careful of my feelings button!] Sometimes I will skip over a poem for a while, and come back to read it again and again... if need be. Yes, there is a lot to be said for giving examples of how it might be made better, but I try hard to give the opinion that this work is theirs and it is up to them to adopt anything I might say or maybe choose to use what I said in a different way. ~ Geezer.
.

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

Feel free to discuss what each has said and what I'm about to.

My approach depends on the poem. some poetry is, after all, really dreadful, as we are about to find as we dredge up undiscovered poems. Though there are gems there. But don't jump ahead , Lynn and I will assign the poems.

Really dreadful I define as lacking in prosodic values, sometimes so personal it is irrelevant to others, can always be spotted when the poet says 'it's from the heart'. Second person used in a preachy way is also a bad sign.

So I read them aloud as I do all poems (I often post a recording to SoundCloud)and then I lie to say something nice, try to make some suggestions if the piece is not too far gone, suggest reading some poets with strong prosody like the Romantics or Tennyson, then say I look forward to their next piece (another lie).

Most important is to show the poet I have read the poem, that I am paying attention and I care.

Those of you who have known me a while know I take a very different approach with you. Blunt honesty. You know about critique and you know I read your works and care. This is what we are aiming for IMNSHO. It is relationship with each other where we can speak truth.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

IMNSHO = In my not so humble opinion.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

quit telling lies! even new poets need to learn to take critique that calls attention to faults. if the whole poem sucks don't tell them it is great but. there is usually at least one line, one something that is pleasing or well done, even if they don't know what they did it lol. i would rather be told the whole things needs to go in the shredder than have you or anyone placate me and lie about anything to do with it. i can take it! and short of insulting the person or their character, etc. we all need to be able to take it if we wish to improve. good way to keep our egos in check

Diplomacy is what I am calling lies. Trying to find something nice to say. New members have left in the past because of my unremitting honesty, so with new members I have had to learn diplomacy. It has paid off. I have had protegees for many years. Even better, many have outgrown me.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I think critique can be quite an emotive word and perhaps the connotations are of criticism rather than feedback which is what we are giving and recieving. I think this colours how people think and behave. As poets we try to give flesh to abstractions and critique is an abstract concept that perhaps is seen as negative rather than positive by many. There are as many views of what critique is and along the continuum I have seen harsh knee capping and nauseous write ups where the person writing the poem writes a detailed account of what the poem is about detailing their ideas about the content, making their write up over shadow the piece.
Perhaps critique needs to be defined in the context of the group.
We live in an instant age and on facebook people are used to likes and loves and wows which is their impetus and only a few genuinely want to know the flaws in their work and how to improve them.

well, you already know well i am one of those few so have at it with my work

That is part of the purpose of this workshop- to educate people in the meaning of critique.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Harsh critique can be sugar coated without losing its power. Too blunt feels like an attack on the poet.. its the poets baby that is being trashed.

This is an interesting quote from an author and poet taken from an interview.
NOTES FROM AN INTERVIEW BY WRITING NSW WITH FIONA WRIGHT ABOUT POETRY AND FEEDBACK

How has receiving feedback on your writing helped you develop as a writer?

It’s been integral, both in terms of developing the writing itself, and in helping me find a community of writers, which is essential, given that so much of what we do happens in isolation and inside our own heads. I’ve always found feedback to be incredibly useful in helping me figure out what my work is trying to do and other ways that I might go about doing that, and pushing me to try different approaches or ideas.
......
For me that so much happens in isolation in our heads, means we all need another eye to help us see different ways of thinking or where our work is a little opaque or we have fallen into clichè.

forgive me for this.
you an tell me to dry up my inks
you can tell me that my poem stinks
you can ask what am i trying to do
the piece is so bad it bothers you
you can tell me not to ever write a poem like that
it's okay i'll be willing to wear a new hat
if my poem in poetry does not belong
you need to tell me where and how i went wrong
are my metaphors illogical
my content pathological
are my rhymes too repetitious
tell the truth just don't be vicious
should i be turning when i'm spinning
the end is best as the beginning
could my cliches fill each ocean
does my poem pull your emotion
tell me what's real, tell me what's true
also tell me, to improve, what i could do

this was meant to be humorous but i did touch on many things i think are pertinent. i used lines referring to things i have been told, things i have seen others told. for example, a metaphor from u.s.a. may not make sense to someone from africa and vice versa. that does not mean either one has to go. this gets into target audiences, which i think need to be considered when giving feedback.

yes, I see the value in this, Cathy

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

There's much to be learned from all the comments offered above. All ye who thirst for knowledge listen to the experts. I'm all ears (indeed, with old age (nearing the 86 year mark), they seem to have gotten as big and flappy as those of my dachshund), but no kidding, your words of wisdom have fallen on fertile soil. Thank you, gents and ladies. Jerry

Jerryk?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

This word has for some reason come to have a negative repute. Not all critique needs to be negative. For a lot of writers who are thrashing around trying to find their voice (like me) it is important to know why a particular poem or part of a poem works as why iy doesn't. So when reading a poem which you enjoy or a part of it which you like then give some thought as to Why you like it. Then pass this on to the writer along with your thoughts on the shortcomings. This does two things: 1. It points out when and where the writer is doing well 2. It makes the writer more willing to listen to a critic if the critic shows he/she is willing to offer praise as well as criticism.

Now to a thorn. Should we offer alternative ways to say something? This is a problem in my opinion. I often suggest another way to write a line or stanza. Sometimes the author then inserts My lines when this is not what I intended them to do. I offer up alternatives mainly to get the author to see there ARE alternates but they should use their own as I can not ever be certain exactly what they want to say.........

when someone for the first time suggested a better line than mine (it was better in my opinion) i thought i could not use it - it would not then be my whole poem, but that one line would make it not mine. i have discussed this with many people and have realized that many poets, and very skilled and published ones, will sometimes use a line given to them. no one thinks the poem is then not entirely theirs. to me this is just editing. like if one had an editor. the substance of the poem, the subject matter, the meaning, is not changed by this one line, at least i have never seen this.so i learned to be willing to replace a word or two or a line and stop feeling like i had to say the poem was co-authored

what I would put in a critique have changed over the years - specifically my perspective on prescriptive grammar "rules", at the end of the day, my idea of critique has stayed the same: to share knowledge and learn together as writers on a peer-to-peer basis, with the poet's long-term improvement being more the goal than changing one poem one time. When some folks can't handle even the kindest and best intended critiques for their writing, or completely ignore all advice even though they've signed up for a community like Neopoet it's disheartening. The reader (who is a fellow poet here) puts a lot of effort into critique. As the poet, offering ourselves up for critique does require some vulnerability, but so does being the reader giving the critique. Sharing knowledge, offering our interpretation, being willing to say that we hope we can help and learn together, all requires vulnerability too. Yet, there are those for whom it's not vulnerability (as the reader or the poet): it's ego. Don't know if we'll ever solve that.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Thanks so much, Kelsey.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I like the rhyme and it only breaks up a wee bit here and there. I would look a little at the third line. I think that changing it up a bit would give it a better flow. Maybe something like: "I never thought money or power"? nice little poem that shows what the author was thinking about when they were writing the poem. The title could be shorter; how about "What Gives You Passion?" language use is good and the theme is fair.It was consistent all the way through and began and ended well.

neopoet.com/workshop/poems/find-out-what-gives-you-passion

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

Rather than post that in 'reply' this should be in its proper place in the thread as a new comment.
I'm not being fussy, mate, it helps keep the dialogue coherent and less confusing if people don't have to scroll back and fourth on such a long thread. ok?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Gee used a technique that I like a lot and is always useful. Because the poet selected all of the feedback request options for the poem, Gee answered all those questions. Direct and foolproof strategy. I don't know Chef Don yet, so I don't know anything about how he writes or how he interacts on Neopoet, so I can only hope that he doesn't blindly/mindlessly click the options and actually wants those kinds of feedback ideas.

Gee also exactly matched the critique intensity request (moderate), in my opinion. It was a somewhat religious poem, and I don't know Gee's religion, but anyone could easily go intense in a critique on a religious poem (whether intense praise or intense constructive feedback).

I tend to avoid any poems that don't select "feel free to knock me on my back" because no matter how kind I am, as Jess puts it, I write critiques like I'm doing a whole new Master's thesis, which is considered intense. I need to go back and check the intensity requests Stan and both Marks were asked to follow; I didn't notice them last night. Lots I can learn from whatever this "moderate" thing is. :)

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Be sure to read Kelsey, Swamp-witch,'s ideas above, she has been a most valued and erudite member for many years.

I have been so given to by seeing young or inexperienced members grow on this site.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I'm here, please add me to it.

Collins

please read this thread and the critiques members are now making on the 'Undiscovered poems' list.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

an honest and useful critique.
I could not have done better.
Some typos in your own critique though? 'wring' for writing?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

so sorry you had to put up with that one I started to read it and stopped after I saw how it went on and on

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

I think you were given an impossible poem to just write a critique on.
I dont think any poem deserves to be trashed. What you have to remember is this the poet is somebody who is writing in a second language exposed to African style poetry that is more opaque and flowery than our Western taste.
That said it was totally opaque. In my experience with such poems the only way to help is to be able to ask the poet what they are saying stanza by stanza to ask them to explain what they mean by the opaque metaphors and help the poet simplify their language. There is no way to make meaningful critique on a poem that one doesn't understand.

But you did a great job, especially going to the poet's profile and checking his other poems.
EVERYONE ELSE PLEASE NOTE..

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I get the feeling that your observation about writing on the smart phone could be the exact culprit. I never knew that writing on smartphones had become normal until I started teaching fully (I've been an assistant for quite a while). For lots of folks, the phone is the only screen/keyboard/Internet access they have. For others, it's because many people, especially young people in the new generation, gen z, have only learned how to use smartphones and not computers. It is all they know. I'll never place a value judgement on that (plenty of people do that, I don't need to add to it); it's just the hand they have been dealt.

On the other hand, it could be a combination of things including what Gee said. It could be train of thought from a non-native speaker, which together, would make a poem that native speakers can't understand.

Possibly, the third option is that the poet is trying for experimental dada nonsense that has some kind of cool and unusual sound without clear meaning. Sometimes I got that impression from our dear, late friend Esker, just never to the extreme that this poem has taken. Esker did it expertly, seemingly without trying, Emeka seems to have tried too hard (if that was what was actually happening) and it didn't work.

If this is the case, we need to ask the poet to look back at the catalyst for dada: it is a reaction to WWI and the realism of the art movements in eras leading up to WWI. Thus, our best usage of dada today, over 100 years later, should be a reaction to something, a visceral response to something mindbogglingly harsh so that we create something mind-boggling in return. If we were to get some response from Emeka that could help us know how to help him, that might be a follow-up to the critiques he received from readers.

I mentioned in an early post that I've taken a complete 180 degree turn away from prescriptive grammar rules, but that is not without it's context. In the case of Emeka, second language learners, those who might be using poetry to build their foreign language skills, and those who have clearly made typos (not made purposeful vernacular choices), it was definitely the right move to suggest edits to typos.

I usually waffle between directly pointing out the correction and not doing so. I never know exactly what technology access the person has, or if their access is consistent. If all they have is a free text editor like notepad, they won't get any spell-checking from their word processor, but they are accessing Neopoet through an Internet browser and as long as it's their personal device and not a public computer, they can install spell-checking browser extensions like Grammarly or choose a browser that checks automatically, like Google Chrome or the other major browsers. What I'm trying to say is that I think sometimes I'm feeling more willing to spell it out for someone and sometimes I'm not. I guess that's a personal call we each make and you made the call that asked Emeka to take that responsibility himself, which works well as long as he can spot the typos, which some second language learners cannot. I mention all that to say that if Emeka did reply and we found out that spelling mistakes/language barriers were the actual problem, we'd have an idea of where to go with further feedback.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

A combination of intellectual understanding, knowledge and empathy.

Perhaps a part of difficult critiques might be asking what technology they are using.

Our chatroom is not phone friendly but if users avoid the full-screen option it seems to solve it.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Except for one thing.
ESL speakers can and do write wonderful poetry. They don't have to learn English first.
Have you finished learning English?

We just have to have a different approach for ESL speakers.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Consider the difficulty in writing anything, let alone poetry, in a second language. To me it shows an admirable desire to be read by a wider readership. These are not poets who write for catharsis or consolation; they are real, committed poets.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

A poem by somebody who I assume uses English as a second language I try to put myself in their shoes. The only languages I speak are English and proper English (otherwise known as Southern English lol). I studied Latin way back in high school. I would not even attempt to write a poem in Latin. So when reading a poem written in a second language I usually skip over the editorial type corrections and instead dwell on the poetic qualities. Even this is a fine edge because they are so closely tied together.
The question is am I doing a second language writer a disservice by not correcting language mistakes. And if I Do address these things should I do it by rewriting the poem with the corrections all the time Hoping the rewrite stays true to what the poet is trying to say?

It depends who has written the poem and how experienced they are. My way of doing this if I dont know somebody well is to say there are some grammar issues and I just go through them e.g.
line 1 he lay should be he lays
line 6 please dont sold me out should be please dont sell me out

If the metaphors are opaque then I ask the poet what they are trying to say and suggest a rephrase when they tell me.
If sentences are inverted then I suggest proper word sequence,

Dont rewrite the whole thing that defeats the learning.
If you think there is a better way of writing the imagery then write an example of how it could be written .
Dont try to rewrite the whole thing

for your thought on this subject

i do what you do. i do not let the errors go. the poet will not learn then that he/she has made them. i often do this privately but more and more young writers want it in public - face book - so that their friends can learn from their mistakes. this is so endearing to me. i hope after so many times of showing them the correct spelling and grammar they will learn by the repetition and things will sink in. i also tell them to read good correct writing.

as to whether you wanted the critique posted here or on the poem or both. I left it on the poem but will be happy to post it here also. If you want it on both it might be a good idea to put the poem here too. OK here's my critique :
Greetings

Sorry I missed this one. What a sad description of living in a retirement center. I'd never even considered how the lack of children being around must affect people. I think perhaps the last stanza needs another line or two to reinforce the one about the lawn being mowed. Maybe something about the meals cooked and the clean hallways. Not being much of a free verser myself, this about the only fault I can find . Hmmmm......perhaps a few alliterations if you can figure out where to put them?.
Link
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/no-kids-live-here

Remember to post the link to the poem here so it's easy to find.
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/no-kids-live-here

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Stan's critque was well done. The pom itself does need another line of two as it felt incomplete to me I did not feel Stan should have made apologies for not knowing freeverse as well as he should as it was irrelevant to the critique itself

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

I like how you started this with positive description. I dont think suggesting adding a few lines at the end about meals or cleaning would help the poem, fundamentally this is about feeling isolated in a one dimensional living environment I think.
A few things you could have concentrated on his title same as the first line so wasted .
The first line was maybe wasted as the first line ..its throwing the whole basis of the poem in at the start when maybe it should have been a reveal.
For me the children he alluded to were his children and they must be grown so they wouldnt add the noise and colour that was maybe lacking. The poem needs more of a story showing what the lack of children means to the poets environment. This was too much tell not enough show.

Thats my thoughts. Sam

It could just be because it's late for me and I'm tired, but I didn't make the "retirement home" connection to the poem like everyone else seemed to. It could just be that I'm not that familiar with them. Few of my elderly family members ever went into retirement homes, so to me, the image of a transition home without children is something else: half-way housing/rehab/etc. That makes for a rather different connotation to the poem. Either way, what you mentioned in the critique would still ring true. Being away from children and family and other signs of life moving forward (in a good way) would be missing and could dampen anyone's spirits.

I also partially agree with the suggestions made about additions. I think additions would suit the poem, but I don't think they belong at the end of the last stanza (not sure if that was what you meant or not). I think the last line works, so it would help to specify where the additions would fit in (earlier in the final stanza, IMO).

Although, of course, I don't find free verse a fault. I also don't think adding literary devices necessarily takes something out of the realm of free verse (and poorly done devices won't improve good free verse; they only make it feel forced or sing-song). Nonetheless, the suggestions for alliteration (or something similar) are good suggestions. Like I mentioned to both Marks, some examples (in a follow-up if Connect11, who is also a Mark, replied) would be a good next step.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Post your critique on the poem but it would be best if we did our critique of the critique here.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Did and done

awaiting 2 critiques I have read both and would like to see what you think of them

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

yes.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I'm in

Collins

see the participants list top left of page.
You prefer to be addressed as Collins rather than Umeh? Sorry, West African names confuse me a little. Here we normally address each other by our first names.

Please read this thread and soon you will be given a poem to critique.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

OK. I'm in. And I'm expecting the poem too

Collins

Umeh, I'm afraid you need to update yourself by reading the pertinent parts of this thread. I assure you there is a bounty of excellent information and discussion here. Please don't feel overwhelmed, you can see many comments can be skipped over. I suggest paying special attention Kelsey's (swamp-witch) posts. She is one of the most informed and empathic members of Neopoet.

It's always a good idea with Neopoet workshops to join early and follow from the beginning, I sent you a PM when the workshop started, so that you wouldn't have a lot of catching up to do, as you have now.

We are assigning the poems for critique in groups of four and yours will be posted soon. I'll also let you know by Private Message.

This discussion hass been truly excellent, it is virtually a short but comprehensive textbook on critique, colour by the personalities of the wonderful members.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Sometimes they require us to go the extra yards to help the poet, as Mark did, visiting the poet's profile and even their other poems.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Some poems in order to become real poetry require a LOT of changes. So at what point does offering a lot of suggested changes become rewriting a poem?

about whether your suggestions are for minor edits, revisions or a rewrite. That is useful feedback in itself.

And too right Mark. Critiquing can be exhaustive and at times futile but it can also be incredibly rewarding. How many poets have we seen recalcitrant and terrible at first become published academic poets, or at least really good poets?

ps Emeka is coming back, he just lost his password, and sounds enthusiastic. I found him on Facebook

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

IMHO I would pm the poet and suggest you work on changes together I have done this and it did help also if it is really awful I don't comment at all or see how receptive they are to a coule of changes

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

PMs to members, especially from male to female members can cause no end of trouble.

PMs are meant for communication between friends.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I believe poetry is, in Eisenstein's remark about film, 'compression of meaning'. I almost always write short and if the meaning is unclear, ok, I'm wide open but when someone just says they like it but want more I feel like saying "Well bloody well read it again and think about it."

Who said 'Always leave them wanting more'?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Bobby Womack, Emma Nichols and many more in many of the arts

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

as I was revisiting the comments that are being left Jess never make me laugh when I am drinking coffee it makes a mess of the screen

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

sorry

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

up and down the mountain

If I were to comment as I suggested above in this rotation: SOUND/LINE/CONTENT.
The work has no meter or cadence and is prose written to look like poetry. Starts anapestic (''at the TOP) and goes off in twenty different feet all over the place with no discipline. There is no beat, no consistent shape of sound.

The poetic lines run off with no set reason. The writer is just talking to us in lines broken to look like a poem. There are times that a pause works at the end of a line, and other times not.

As for content, there is no real point to it. A quaint description of a visit to a place with no moral, no narrative, no message, no poetic truths or metaphors. A bit embarrassingly adolescent with the chaffing balls. Just silly.

Very amateur poem, beginner level.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain by juju bee

And part of the point of this workshop is to actually leave a critique on the poem, not talk about how you might do it in the workshop.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

When it came to your critique, I could see what you meant. I mostly agree with the evaluation. I do have appreciation for "prose poetry" and I could see the poem's merit as a piece of that genre, but beyond that...I didn't connect with it. I would like to know why you didn't connect.

Was it the prose-poetry-esque-ness (I'm certain there is a more succinct way to write that, but it's almost the end of the week and my brain is fried) that created the disengagement for you, or the parts that felt adolescent or the parts that grossed you out? I'm not trying to suggest it's an age thing, but is it an age thing? Is it a "too close to home" thing? I've never had balls, so I've never had them chafe, but I'm the type of person that when I hear about/see an injury/discomfort that I know well, I do get a shiver and need to turn away. I'm just too sensitive and I feel that phantom discomfort. Was it something like that? Or something else entirely?

I mention all that because explaining in more detail to the poet why you were disengaged (beyond the image of adolescent twittering) could have helped them. We don't know how old ju.ju.bee is; we don't know if this poem is an imaginary narrator telling an imaginary story or a real-life experience she or someone else had, so chalking it up to common way of using twitter/social media to document every little drab detail of our lives like a digital diary may not be the advice ju.ju.bee needs. She may not use social media that way (plenty of us don't) so describing the poem's shortcomings that way (and only that way) may not create that eureka effect for her.

If you got feedback like that on a poem, what type of feedback would help you? Do you like leading questions? Examples? Personal anecdotes to demonstrate points? Other things? I like a little of all of it, so I give a little of all of it, to the best of my ability. I'm not saying you have to do all that, but keep in mind that you think the poem is amateur. So, the person likely doesn't have the same amount of experience as you and could use some ideas. That's what I felt like your critique was missing and what likely caused others in the workshop to consider the critique harsh. We don't always need to "soften the blow" but providing something the poet can actually use helps.

You hoped for a take away or a lesson learned in the poem. Did you give the poet a clear takeaway? I'm not sure. You don't have to interpret the poem and figure out the answer for the poet (don't have to hold their hand), but you could suggest some common themes to prompt them to figure it out and decide why the poem should matter for their readers. Or you can ask it that way: "why should this poem matter to readers/why should they read it?" If the person retorts with a twitter-diary sort of answer like "it's just for me", then the follow-up question is, "then why did you post it to a public poetry workshop for international consumption?" And you can do a figurative "mic drop" and know not to waste your valuable critique time on that person in the future, because when that conversation happens, that person has just revealed that they aren't here to learn.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

I thought that the whoosh of yesterday's rain was the stream flowing down the mountain. I didn't connect the flapping boot to anything except the marking of time, when you are noticing little things lie the flapping of a boot sole. All-in-all, a good poem.
Geezer.
.

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

When he does a critique that is, and stops talking about how he might do it.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

forgot what I was doing. I thought that Eumie's critique was rather brutal, showing no empathy or encouragement for the writer. He did not critique as though it were for the writer; it was more like crushing the poet, to a bunch of people at a party.
Geezer.
neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain
.

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

I think his critique was too harsh. I suspect that it would be a good thing if a writer paid attention to later comments from a critic but when this harsh, without any real suggested changes, the author is likely to ignore any further critique from him. Surely there's something good to be said about the poem to give the author a bit of hope

Please post your critique on the poems page as everyone else has done. I don't think my instructions are unclear. Everyone else got it right.
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

As I was suggesting to Jess that there is the soft and polite criticism and the raw truth and opinion by a peer. As I said I would never want to hurt feelings, but here we are all peers and saying it as it is.
There is so little craft in the poem I’m reviewing it’s like, where do you start? Tell the author to take a course in “what is poetry 101”. I can only really spend the effort with poems that have some strengths, some obvious aspects that show the writer has put in some time in the craft.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

is to bite the bit and dive into the murky depths of the 'Undiscovered Poems' list occasionally.
Be nice and lie if you have to but no poet left behind!

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

imo its better to say nothing than to lie. You are leaving the poem behind and takes your critique down to the level of Facebook likes.

inho I try to find a good word somewhere ,advise if I can't do that then I will tell the writer why I thought it a bad write thereby not telling a lie either way .but have to say reading and not leaving a comment well not my cup of tea

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

it is my idiosyncratic way of saying be tactful or diplomatic on a poem with no value whatsoever. I would never say 'this has great meter' for example, if it didn't.

To me it is lying when I write something encouraging on a poem by someone who has never given critique to anyone else. I'm thinking 'give back or fuck off'. I will suggest that giving critique to others greatly helps improve one's own poetry. Which is true.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

The thing is gentle encouragement Jess. Commenting is hard if you have no confidence and also you have to read and understand a poem and many skim and move on. It takes time and concentration to read a poem properly and mostly people don't and maybe thats the place to start with members. Its also time consuming.. I think sometimes just want to post

interesting comment valued by who?

encouraged by a few innocuous lies, and nurtured with increasingly honest critique, gradually learn and grow and become really outstanding poets.

I'm in it for the long haul so I can afford to play such long-term strategies.

Valued in the general sense mostly by those of us who work the site. There is nothing empirical or official about it except if they start to give good critique on a regular basis we might honour them with an Advocates badge.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Alan an interesting critique, although I was wondering if you actually got the theme. I felt it was a little harsh to say it started at the beginning and ended at the end if that was as positive as you could be perhaps saying nothing would have been better. Talk about being damned by faint praise.
This was actually a very clever poem and critique is not just about negatives. Imo there was much to commend.
The juxtaposition of the two lifestyles... the metaphors.
The short lines and stanzas with enjambment across stanzas keeping the momentum.
I thought the repetition of Racing added to the poem and kept the alliteration of r across stanza 3.
There were lits of positives
Sam.

I thank you so much for describing my critique as interesting because that is what I feel it is meant to be. (Who is he who would welcome uninteresting critique?). I am, though flummoxed by your interpretation of 'good' as 'faint praise' and negative with reference to my comments on the beginning and ending of the poem. I assure you I intended to damn no one. It's just that if someone accused something written by me as good I would be grateful. The author invited comments on the beginning and ending therefore I disagree that saying nothing would have been better.

I would like you to know that your taking the time to look into my critique is generous and valuable to me as I get to know how Noepoet works so, again Sam, I thank you sincerely.

.......................................
Critique is a compliment
Kind regards, Alan
.......................................

Alan's critique is fair. I don't know him, so his style of critique/critique personality is unfamiliar to me.

I don't know if I agree with him or with Samary about "racing". I do like repetition when used purposefully/sparingly and really love good alliteration, but I can understand that other folks don't feel the same way and he made the suggestion in a good way, clear and kind.

I agree with his other suggestion, to change the pronoun "that" to "it". I love the stanza/line indicators to help the poet find exactly where to look when they revise.

However, feedback about the end/beginning was...unexpected. I don't quite know how to react to that part of the critique. What do those evaluations mean? That the beginning and ending were so-so? Alan could have given a suggestion or just said they were so-so. The way he wrote it was unusual to me and I can see poets (maybe not Greg, but other less experienced poets) interpreting harsh "tone" from that part.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

I am very pleased to meet you.
I didn't say that Greg's beginning and ending was so-so.....you did.
I said the beginning started at the beginning and the end ended at the end. I thought that this was supposed to happen.

'What we call the beginning is often the end. And to make an end is to make a beginning. The end is where we start from.' ~ T.S. Eliot

.......................................
Critique is a compliment
Kind regards, Alan
.......................................

But what does that mean? The only thing I could surmise was that you meant they were so-so.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Kelsey. For the avoidance of doubt and to save referring to the poem, here is what I did say:-

Beginning is good ~ it starts at the beginning.
Ending is good ~ it ends at the end.

I made use of the adjective 'good' for both the beginning and the ending.
I said this on 22 January and Greg has not asked what it means, therefore I expect that he surmises that I mean that the beginning and the ending are good.

You must forgive me, though, if my comments were unexpected as I haven't been with Neopoet long and therefore not able to define expected in this context. That really goes the same for unusual too. If comments are to be expected and usual then why request them in the first place? I guess that I have a lot to learn.

I wouldn't agree that I have used a harsh tone as I was invited to 'feel free to knock me on my back' but mistakenly thought that this meant feel free to knock me on my back.

Looking forward to reading your work and learning from you...

.......................................
Critique is a compliment
Kind regards, Alan
.......................................

Thanks for your view, always welcome. I suppose that saying what I did smokescreened some readers from recognising that I actually said the beginning and the ending of the poem were good. The author particularly asked for comments on the beginning and ending and that is what he received (he actually asked for the raw truth too).

With reference to the beginning and ending of poems, Mark, this is what I think (Here we go again!)

'The beginning of a poem should begin and the end of a poem should end' ~ sorry.

.......................................
Critique is a compliment
Kind regards, Alan
.......................................

Alan,

Thank you for explaining. I know that Greg will appreciate the feedback, and does accept the raw truth graciously.

Mark, your explanation also helps me understand what Alan was saying. He meant that it wasn't "in medias res", cliff hanger, circular narrative, etc. The "begins at the beginning/ends at the end" felt tautological to me, so I really didn't have a clue if there was some ulterior meaning there or not. We can't readily understand a person's tone in an online writing medium, so the poet can't be certain if we are being sarcastic or not, and I was not sure if Alan was or not.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

lied just a little! At least said; that you looked forward to seeing how he had used the critique to make it better. yes, toward the end, you took your foot off his neck, but... ~ Geezer
.
https://www.neopoet.com/comment/170701#comment-170701

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

or Alan's?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

what you are saying Geezer ~ but how do I know that you are telling the truth?

.......................................
Critique is a compliment
Kind regards, Alan
.......................................

but the subject of tact/diplomacy/lying has come up several times in this workshop and I think the rule of thumb is we practice tact/diplomacy/lying to beginner/very poor poets gradually evolving with the poet to outright honesty.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

How to give critique to ESL (English as a Second Language) speakers.

We have a lot of new West African members. You learn English at school, along with your local language, and a transmogrified form of pijin has become a dialect.

I cringe retrospectively at directing some of you to The Romantics. Your own expression is vibrant, colourful and powerful yet at times incomprehensible to Westerners. Yet the raw tools of poetry: Meter; sound tools like assonance, consonance, alliteration and yes [sighs] rhyme remain the same, they are what create the music of the spoken word.. There is no harm in learning prosodic tools like these, it won't turn your work into 'white bread', it will only increase the effectiveness of your poetry.

For the Westerners here check this out. Young West African poets, it is 18 minutes very well spent.
https://youtu.be/sn6LicbvMrE

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

https://www.neopoet.com/comment/170744#comment-170744

You said nothing wrong,
it was perfect,
but much to fucking long!

We can't give each member a n MA in poetry in a single critique.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

because I didn't know how to feel about the poem, which is rare for me. Looking forward to seeing if anyone else has a more solid/clear reaction to the poem. Since my problem is the opposite of everyone else I've ever met, I don't know if suggestions on how to say less in a critique would actually help anyone else or not.
Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

I know I can't possibly give this much attention to every poem I critique and with so many new poets joining each day it is important to give each of them as much attention as possible.

Indulge me. Imagine you are logging in each day and giving as much critique to each poem as you can. Then give us a pared down version of your critique. Would you mind doing that?

Yes, I believe that your "suggestions on how to say less in a critique would actually help".

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

That should work, Jess. I will challenge myself to think of it that way.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

your critique was longer than the poem do you think any of it hit it's mark?

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

My goal (personally) with critique is to give the poet help that can apply to the current poem and to future writing. If they can improve that one poem, that's great, but if my critique doesn't do anything else, they don't actually get much opportunity to grow. That is the English teacher in me. I know Raj is experienced and reacts well to any/all feedback. I wouldn't provide so much to someone I don't know.

I will work on brevity, but will continue to provide feedback that extends beyond the single poem.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

I will add them to Curated Resources.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

what would you do when you give a crique that is is not recieved well by the poet thereby the poet attacks the person critiquing them
To avoid conflict I ignor this as it is not worthy my time and comes off as a sour grapes anyway type ttitude
also how many of us respect or even read the poets level of critque
such as the raw truth or gentle as this poem means something to me
Heck all that I write means something special to me
and there are folks that ask for the raw truth but when given cannot accept it and attack you
curious to know what you all think

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

The situation you describe is something Neopoet has dealt with for a long time. Ask the longtime folks: it's caused many, many arguments over the years. Not just debates, flat out arguments.

I have personally ran out of the energy to plead with people to accept critique when they don't like it. I just stop providing it to those people.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

been a member for about 12 yrs now yes I have had my share of people attacking me personally for a critique very recently as a matter of fact I have decided that I would pass that person by in the future I had just wondered how others would handle tht situation Life is to short and I have better things to do than to worry about whether or not someone lked my critque thanks for your input on the subject

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

Only one. The AC. We will have the election results soon and a new, functioning AC, with a permanent banner on the homepage naming the members and how to contact them.

This will be effective and with quick response times.

There is no point in complaining to anyone else, they can not take your complaint to the AC themselves. Alternatively you can contact the AC through Resources>Contact Neopoet>AC/Administration.

I repeat, the AC will be effective and available, even if your problem is with a member of the AC. Complaints directed anywhere else are pointless and frankly annoying, you will just be directed to the AC.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Abusive people are often repeat offenders and will probably attack others if not stopped.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

It depends ... yes we all get upset when we post our best ever poem and somebody trashes it. I might say I am sorry you feel whatever it is. This is my opinion which you are free to ignore, it was written to enable you to think about your poem differently, but this is your poem and if you think it works as it is its your perogative, critique is only advisory.
Or I would ignore it ...
Or I would say I am sorry you were not open to thinking about my comments I will make note never to comment on your work in future.
Depending on the vitriol and my state of equanimity.

That is definitely a good way to preface critique ("take it or leave it, it's up to you"). I usually try to include that any time I'm commenting on someone who I don't know (and hope for the best). Luckily, it's been a while for me since that preface wasn't enough for the person receiving the critique, but I'm not active enough on here currently to encounter more reactionary responses to my critique. What I've encountered more of lately (and "lately" was months ago when I was last active) is lots of folks who just never reply to anyone. Just post silently. Not totally sure what's up with that and not sure if it has improved lately or not.

We can always hope that somewhere along the line the people who react negatively (no matter how kind the critique is) decide they want to grow and start engaging with critique, or will make it abundantly clear that they won't change (so we can avoid them).

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

One thing I wonder about if people are going to critique is having a joint understanding of terms.
Perhaps you all do, as since I have been in the group I have seen Mark Stan and Kelsey wax on about metre or meter in Free Verse poems.
So is an accepted definition of metre all rythmn in poems. Not just syllabic, accentual or accentual syllabic styles of sound utilisation?
To me metre specifically refers to those poetry forms where sound has to be organised totally rhythmically. I wouldnt use the word metre in relation to the cadance, rhythm and flow needed in Free Verse where we inject much of the rhythm by manipulation of words, sounds and meaning more often using assonance, alliteration etc. Forgive the English spelling!

I don't think we've met. I've been a way for a while, so I missed the opportunity to welcome you. Welcome!

In my critique, Raj did seem to be going for a specific meter, and just didn't achieve it fully as a non-native speaker of English. That is why I wrote about it. Most folks here do seem to share understanding of terminology. Just a many folks on the site seem to write structured/metered poetry as unstructured/free verse.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Nice to sort of meet you. Yes he has good rhythm in parts
he started off with 8 syllables per line, floated around, 10, 9, 12, 7 so consistency poor for a metred form. He had extraneous words that added some glitches in the read . If he was trying for metre it was very mixed which in itself is not a problem in a free form. I would have asked him directly if he was trying to achieve metre I think.
I think it wasnt a bad poem commentary on current events and needing some polishing. As you said rhyme needed to be tightened or reduced.

Can I start with the last paragraph I named you because you have all used meter in conversations in the past. It is not a complaint but a comment you and Stan used the word differently to the way I would but that is the problem with semantics I am just highlighting that when we all interprete differently it changes communication perceptions and that can be an issue for the person recieving critique. Especially if people seen as the site experts all use terms differently. I was using that to illustrate not castigate!

I think its good to put rescources into workshops why not, this is about learning and interacting... I love learning material and then maybe discussion round it.

on a thread that is already so long as to be confusing, is to post it as a poem for the workshop.
You could still do this and edit the comment to just the link. How about it?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

It may have been answered in the thread, but I can't find it:

How many rounds of critiques on undiscovered works are we doing over the month? I can't tell how many total undiscovered poems there are, just that there are about three pages of them, and 13 of us, including mods. Are mods going to be in the critique rotation too? Just want to get a feel for how it will go from here now that we're in the swing of things.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

the intent is not to completely clear the Undiscovered Work list. That would be a Sisyphusean task! Though much more rewarding than pushing boulders.

13 poems will be removed from the list but our goal is more in reviewing and critiquing each others critiques and of course this discussion thread, with some editing, could well become part of Curated Resources.

There are only five remaining poems to be critiqued for the workshop.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

There are only 7 remaining poems to be critiqued for the workshop. We are waiting on Miranda and Ndu from the second group and the final 5, cathy mccormick, samary, Umeh Collins Ebube, Lynn and myself will be announced shortly.

After that we will have a short discussion summing up and I will ask for your critique of the workshop itself; how it could have been run or managed better; what you got from it or didn't; suggestions for future workshops and volunteers to run them.

I want to say at this point that I feel this is one of the most productive workshops I have had the honour of leading. I am much tempted to edit this discussion thread and post it as a Curated Resource.

Thank you all so much for your informed, insightful (a long list of adjectives of praise) and caring input.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Thanks for the updates. I think one poem each is really doable and still makes a good dent in the list. The WS will likely create momentum for folks to continue working through the list, too. Happy to help edit this into a curated resource when that time comes. There's tons of good info here.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

but I wouldn't dream of putting the editing on you. You have your own work load and mine, apart from a few volunteer positions, is Neopoet.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Yes, it happens, though less often these days. Sometimes we get attacked for critique we've given. Sometimes a discussion gets heated and we may even slip into ad hominem ourselves. If it is you please edit the comment straight after you have pressed Enter or Send in haste. Better still, if you find yourself getting angry don't press enter! If you are attacked there is only one response, and you really must use it- the AC. The Administrative Council, your democratically elected body.

We will have the election results soon and a new, functioning AC, with a permanent banner on the homepage naming the members and how to contact them.  Alternatively you can contact the AC through Resources>Contact Neopoet>AC/Administration.

They will be effective and with quick response times.

There is no point in complaining to anyone else, they can not take your complaint to the AC themselves.

I repeat, the AC will be effective and available, even if your problem is with a member of the AC. Complaints directed anywhere else are pointless and frankly annoying, you will just be directed to the AC.

Don't let abuse pass. Don't think you are being nuisance (unless you are [smiles]). Remember abusive people are often repeat offenders so you have a duty not only to yourself but to other members to report it to the AC.

Personal attacks or harrasment will not be tolerated. We will also have a new warning on Private Messages. Some ghastly individuals have hidden behind PMs in the past. No more.

Contact the AC.
 

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

This would be a mistake to think complaints never result in actions. There have actually been a handful of abusive members Permanently Banned from the site over the years I have been here. The Ac does not take the abuse of members lightly.
At the same time don't worry that a single complaint is likely to result in a permanent ban. (there are a few exceptions such as pedophilia and other such egregious offenses). The accused when found guilty is usually given a warning for first offense. If he/she abuses again then a short term suspension is typical. The next step is a long term expulsion. Only when it becomes evident that the offender has no intention to alter his/her abusive ways is the abuser permanently suspended. ........I just thought this might be a good forum to clarify this since a lot of time people with thin skins think they are being abuse although what is really happening is they are hearing the truth about a poem. Always limit critique to the poem itself . DO NOT attack the writer.........'nuff said.

It has been said people may be afraid to report a prominent site member, that there may be retributive consequences.
THIS IS NOT SO!
Your complaint will be treated with confidentiality and no member is exempt. The only members exempt from expulsion are the owners, Andrew and Paul and even they could be suspended. I've been suspended several times.

All this will be described and open for discussion when the new AC is in place.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

As has been said; you give the most through and detailed critique of anyone I have ever seen! You not only covered every thing that should have ben covered, but with a personal touch that went far and beyond what one would expect from a website such as ours. Nice job, but I'm afraid that it has been wasted, as I do not believe that he will wade through the whole thing and take any of your advice seriously. Too bad. ~ Gee.
.

Come to Chat on the Darkside
every other Saturday night 8pm to ?
Bring your dark and delicious work
to show.

.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

(Lynn is looking for a fiendishly difficult one to throw at me)
cathy mccormick - https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/dazed
samary - https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/white-chair
Umeh Collins Ebube - https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/accident
Lynn - https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/tamed

Still waiting on Miranda and Ndu from the last round.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

For this valuable piece on critique, which is linked to the workshop-
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/reading-and-analysis-poetry-not-poem

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

your poem is.
ww.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/lonely-hill

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

yes what Jess said

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

Something that seems mostly unique to poetry these days is poets sprinkling in words like "thou" in otherwise current English (folks aren't throwing in outdated terms in workplace writing, fiction novels, or academic essays). Sometimes they are purposefully emulating Shakespeare and other historic poetry, but sometimes they just throw it in there to sound fancy or religious or something. When it's an old enough term, it's easy to spot and easy to decide that it doesn't fit. The more recent the old-fashion term is, the harder it is to decide if it works or not.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/tamed
Alright,honestly
I hated the poem,. However I was kind in my critique. I did not care for the subject matter, but then that is me. I have grown into an old fuddy duddy lol.. The author did choose the words carefully it seemed to me

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

I agree with both C Lynn and Mark's suggestions for the poem and poet. I thought it would be useful to point out that the poet has marked "not actively editing" on the poem. Almost an absolute guarantee that all the advice from C Lynn and Mark (and anyone else) will go unheeded.

Since C Lynn really didn't enjoy the content, I hope we can talk more about that. How do we remain unbiased in our critique when we don't like the content? How do we get the motivation to keep going with poems like those? I'd rather not critique when I don't at least appreciate the idea behind the content. That's probably why so many poems stay in the undiscovered list. Anyone who has bothered to stop in for a peek finds plenty of things they'd rather not read, so they don't.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

usually tell the author that I disagree with the content of the poem but then Try to give critique on the mechanics of the poem.

You are right it was mostly tell and separate ideas pulled together with no link or flow

In my opinion a lengthy critique (even if it seems it is called for) is counter productive . Too many actors will not read it and will thus miss out on a lot of constructive criticism. I think a shorter critique is more likely to be read by most folks and thus absorbed. Remember we don't have to teach each other everything in a single critique and should be willing to gradually improve one another's writing skills.

I agree with you comment.
Chrys

Bright Side Chat
Tuesday-Fridays
3-4 PM EST

Better late than never....

Sorry for taking so long to do my critique. My life is a battlefield right now...

Write for fun, or for the love of writing!
But just write for you!

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I'm getting a "page not found" error when I click the link, Jess. I think because loved changed the title.

Let's see if this one works: https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/paradise-imagination-ed

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Miranda,

I don't think we've met yet, but I hope everything works out and you'll be okay. I'm living that battlefield life right now too. Trying to keep some semblance of sanity, and I hope you can too.

Your critique is great. Loved/lovedly has been a member for a while and I don't think they are actually Romanian, but I'm not sure where they are from or why they would put that on their profile. I honestly don't know at this point if English is their native language or not, even though in their reply to you they said it was. They have always constructed their words like I imagine a nonnative speaker might, so I don't know what to make of it.

Without knowing any of that background about them, you took the information you were given in the poem and profile and made a solid critique with great advice. It was polite, encouraging, and constructive with clear examples and advice for a resource the writer could use going into the future.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Sorry havent worked out the link think.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I'm so sorry and do apologize for messing up this WS. I froze my account for 24 hours while sorting out some issues with the trustees but I was too close to the 24 hour deadline when I came back and all my stuff was gone but my name and a few other things. They are working to restore my stuff but I don't know if they will be able to.
Again, I am sorry for messing up this WS. It was going great, the best workshop ever. I learned so much.
Thanks, Jess and everyone. I hope my stuff comes back soon.
Later,

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/dazed

I liked how Cathy starts off by saying that she loves the poem and theme.
She goes on to mention a few places that she might have done differently.
It seems that one thing I do a bit different from most critiques is have a look at the poets profile and Tracking.
This poem was done near four years ago and is the poets most recent work. So, I noted that, and invited the poet back to show us more.
Later,

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

i did not look at the profile. i just assumed the poem was picked for critique for a reason. this is an exception for me. with almost everyone i ever give input to, i have looked at their whole face book. and some of their other work

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/white-chair

Professional, comprehensive, well thought out.
What I would expect from Samantha.
Great job for only some thoughts ;~)

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

then we will move on to final discussion and summing up.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I put up a poem called Longing with a critique from a fellow poet for your thoughts.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I think Collins is looking for something that is not there. I think he is right when he says there needs to be more. The poem although about any accident needs more imagery and description for me. I don't think WW is saying men are white but rather saying men in white referring to clinicians of some sorts. Th rhyme was very natural a great feature of this poem yet not mentioned. The last 2 lines were good, I agree.
He expressed his view but didn't give the poetess what she asked for which was all points of request directions and review intensity (knock me on the back) For that reason and more (like introducing himself or saying something to make some sort of connection) not being there I would bet the poetess was turned off but may reply to his asking for more.

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

Use of valued time is worthwhile! I do believe this is the first example of a critique that includes a reading. What a wonderful way to finish off a professional critique.
That's all,

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

Readings as a tool of critique I would particularly like feedback on. I've done readings of most of your works over the years and it is frankly a pleasure, not a chore, the technicalities are second nature now and the process doesn't take much longer than just reading the poem.

It helps me a great deal in determining the meter and/or cadence of a piece and spotting jarring words and disruptions to the flow, identifying the peculiarly euphonious qualities. This was particularly evident in the 'Cellar Door' workshop.

But how useful is it to you and why do more of you not do it?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

This is selfish/egotistical of me, but I don't like my voice. That's basically it. I don't think I can do good poems justice. If I'm trying to make suggestions to a poem, my voice isn't helping demonstrate the point, it's taking away from it.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

sounds like a cross between Donald Duck and a Bumble Bee but by the time I've run it through a couple of filters in Audacity you get the dulcet, heavy smoking tones you hear in my recordings.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

This workshop has been a pleasure to run with outstanding feedback from everyone involved.

If you would just like you to leave any final critiques of critiques, and I will ask for your critique of the workshop itself; how it could have been run or managed better; what you got from it or didn't and suggestions for future workshops.

Samantha has posted the next workshop in this series so head on over to 'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry', hands down the most important element of poetry (if you feel like arguing about that statement do it there, not here [grins]).

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

Added some more of my trademark pungency.
https://www.neopoet.com/comment/171023#comment-171023

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

I believe the importance of readings is to show that anyone can do it and how important it is to practice at articulating and to see for ones self how the rhythm of what they write fares.
Working from the lost poems listing was a great idea and hopefully will bring replies and members back to us.
Thank you, and I look forward to more workshops led by you.
Truly,

~Mark~
To comment is necessary.
To acknowledge a comment is a compliment.

Live Chat is open 24/7,
come in, mix and mingle often!

The idea was great and well-executed. I don't know if we've ever had a workshop where the poems to-be-critiqued were from the undiscovered list, and I don't know why we didn't think of it sooner. Some of those poems are there for a reason, so they became a real challenge for the reader to provide feedback on. Some didn't deserve to be there, hidden gems, so they got the attention they deserved.

I think keeping them limited to one round is the right idea, and hope future rounds will follow as their own workshops (to help prevent burnout), whether they have a specific other subject/focus or just are refreshers like this one was.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

was the small number of newer members who joined.
Good on you Miranda Ortiz, Alan S Jeeves, Ndubuisi Onyeacholam and Umeh Collins Ebube
Samantha and Cathy already feel like experienced members.

I sent group PMs to newer members but perhaps for future workshops you could each specifically invite new members who have caught your attention. Critique is absolutely critical for a workshop site like Neopoet so there will be more.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

It was good to interact in a small way with others members and get a feel for some of the issues. Good to look at poems and others commenting styles in a safe environment. Thanks Jess

....to come and do a 'critique' on any of my own pieces. I shall be interested to hear views. In particular, I'd love some feedback on https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-god-looked-down-and-smiled !
.

Edna
Poet(ess) to the Stars

xxx
Edna
Poet(ess) to the Stars

...do I delete an item which posted itself twice?

xxx
Edna
Poet(ess) to the Stars

that you want to delete, you should see an "Unpublish" button near the top by the Edit, View, and Revisions buttons. I am not sure if you get an "are your sure?" prompt before the poem is deleted or not, and there is no undoing later, so make sure it's the right one.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

a comment you can't delete, just edit the text to a full stop in subject and comment like this-

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

a comment you can't delete, just edit the text to a full stop in subject and comment like this-

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

author comment

we need to be reminded that critique (which for some reason has come to carry a negative connotation) can also be positive. This shop has accomplished that,

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