About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

To join a workshop, first find one that is of interest to you. Once you have found the right workshop (and verified that it is open -- you can find this out in the description below), you can apply to join the workshop.


Join the Neopoet online poetry workshop and community to improve as a writer, meet fellow poets, and showcase your work. Sign up, submit your poetry, and get started.

Critique For New And Old

Program description/goal: 

Description: An introduction to critique for new members and a reminder to long time members that critique is what Neopoet is all about, join in!

Leader: weirdelf
Moderator: c lynn brooks

Objectives: To help poets help each other through constructive feedback. To help redefine the meaning of 'critique' if it has negative connotations for you.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: We will assign each participant a poem from the 'Undiscovered Works' list to critique. This is challenging, yes, there is a reason each poem has gone uncommented on. Your challenge is to find something good to say about the poem; to give reasons why it has gone 'Undiscovered' and to find ways to improve it. Then on this thread we will critique each others critiques.

Yes, it's a challenge! But that is the entirety of our reason for being, to be generous and courageous in spirit in helping each other improve our craft.

We will start with a discussion on the nature of critique, how to be honest without being abusive. How to be helpful without being destructive. Find the parameters for how far suggestions should go and what is acceptable.

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
50 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Thursday, January 16, 2020 to Friday, March 20, 2020
Short description: 
Good critique

Comments

Thanks, anyone could use brush up or the exposure to Neo critique that I know this workshop will offer.

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

me in

and welcome to the fray!

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

critique in the 2 workshops I host are very different. In the older group, average age 70, the focus is on the craft first. In the other, average age 25, the focus is on content first. We need to find a middle ground. No easy task. But count me in to try and help.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

Methinks this one might get a little warm before we even get to a'crittin'.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Hope to learn something. ~ Geezer.
.

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

I'm still kinda new here. But I'll give it a shot!

Write for fun, or for the love of writing!
But just write for you!

and welcome.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Here! You can count me in. I'll contribute as much as I can. That will fluctuate from week to week, but I'll be here.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

appreciated

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I will give it a shot

you are most welcome.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

First how about you initial summations of how good critique should work, please keep them brief, up to about 100 words should suffice. Perhaps some lively debate will attract some more participant, especially amongst our newer members.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I believe when a poet understands a good critique their eyes open like, wow, I hadn't thought of that and it makes sense. That poet won't forget how to think of the critique when editing or composing a fresh poem. I was introduced to meter here and have not forgotten it as a choice to maintain rhythm in what I write. I think in terms of rhythm when I write and have got to the point where a line is more sung than said. So, the impact of a critique is most important. Critique needs to wake up a poet to more choices or opportunities opposed to shutting the poet down discouraged.
Later,

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

That is especially gratifying to me for, as you know, I've always regarded meter as the single most important prosodic element and have driven myself, and others, nearly mad trying to teach it in workshops [grins]

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

jess i think this has reached the limit for participants. if not add me please

you are added and most welcome.

What's your 'first take' on critique?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I believe a good critique should suggest not demand, corrections also suggest where they think another word or phrase might be appropriate and most of all to not forget you are makiing a crtique on the poem and not the author

New Workshop
critique for new and old

i have had excellent and gentle critique and scathing harsh screaming lol. i learned from both. but i admit i prefer a more gentle touch. just don't ask me to send you the pen and the paper i wrote the poem on so you can tear up the paper and stab it with the pen

I usually use the "sandwich" method. I find something good to say then place the suggestion for change in between two good things. eg. "I really liked the subject of your poem but the 3rd stanza is unclear as to intent. But the poem flows well". This allows the writer to pad his suggestion which makes it less likely to offend the writer.

Could I join?

you have been added

New Workshop
critique for new and old

!- SOUND I try to read a poem out loud in my head (or out loud). It's different that reading prose. I first try to hear the pace,meter or sound of the poem. Poetry is to sound as color is to painting. Often in blank verse I put drum to it, to catch the flow of words.To me sound, rhythm, is what separates poetry from prose. So if the meter goes all over the place, or is all iambic like a nursery rhyme,I'm out.
2- SHAPE- lines must have purpose, have a reason to be line other than it is broken to look like poetry. Meter, rhyme, and idea can be enough for a line. It needs a reason to exist in showing us how to read the poem, how to take breaks.
3-CONTENT- I need to feel on the first reading I have an idea of what the poem is about. If I immediately am lost,because the poet is being obscure, hiding his meanings in layers and layers, i blame the poet for failing to include me, and if the poet doesn't care, neither do I. The poem must relay something of its soul on the first read. Then you can dig in and get to the many other inferences and meanings, Likewise. if the poem feels cliche, contrived, on the first read...it probably is.
I look for poems that find that sweet point between giving not enough or too much. You leave the plate feeling both full and hungry at the same time.

This is what I bring to the comments I make. I try to do so politely, with praise for what works in a poem, we all have public and private ways we comment. After your 10,000 hours of reading (a decade or two of reading poems) you can spot the level a person is writing on, like a musician or athlete. You have to tenure your comment to that level.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

A great summing up of how to read a poem and think about its merits. Agree.

That I wonder if you could pare it down to bare essentials for us to use as a 'Curated Reference'.

I ask for the paring down because in my experience poets don't like reading much, besides poetry.

As to private feedback I really don't recommend it. Anything you have to say you should be able to say publicly. There have been complaints.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

like almost everything that could be said about giving critique has been said; but I will add my two cents. I always read it out loud. That is where I get the sense of rhythm. I try to be kind, [especially if they have hit the [please be careful of my feelings button!] Sometimes I will skip over a poem for a while, and come back to read it again and again... if need be. Yes, there is a lot to be said for giving examples of how it might be made better, but I try hard to give the opinion that this work is theirs and it is up to them to adopt anything I might say or maybe choose to use what I said in a different way. ~ Geezer.
.

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

Feel free to discuss what each has said and what I'm about to.

My approach depends on the poem. some poetry is, after all, really dreadful, as we are about to find as we dredge up undiscovered poems. Though there are gems there. But don't jump ahead , Lynn and I will assign the poems.

Really dreadful I define as lacking in prosodic values, sometimes so personal it is irrelevant to others, can always be spotted when the poet says 'it's from the heart'. Second person used in a preachy way is also a bad sign.

So I read them aloud as I do all poems (I often post a recording to SoundCloud)and then I lie to say something nice, try to make some suggestions if the piece is not too far gone, suggest reading some poets with strong prosody like the Romantics or Tennyson, then say I look forward to their next piece (another lie).

Most important is to show the poet I have read the poem, that I am paying attention and I care.

Those of you who have known me a while know I take a very different approach with you. Blunt honesty. You know about critique and you know I read your works and care. This is what we are aiming for IMNSHO. It is relationship with each other where we can speak truth.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

IMNSHO = In my not so humble opinion.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

quit telling lies! even new poets need to learn to take critique that calls attention to faults. if the whole poem sucks don't tell them it is great but. there is usually at least one line, one something that is pleasing or well done, even if they don't know what they did it lol. i would rather be told the whole things needs to go in the shredder than have you or anyone placate me and lie about anything to do with it. i can take it! and short of insulting the person or their character, etc. we all need to be able to take it if we wish to improve. good way to keep our egos in check

Diplomacy is what I am calling lies. Trying to find something nice to say. New members have left in the past because of my unremitting honesty, so with new members I have had to learn diplomacy. It has paid off. I have had protegees for many years. Even better, many have grown out of me.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I think critique can be quite an emotive word and perhaps the connotations are of criticism rather than feedback which is what we are giving and recieving. I think this colours how people think and behave. As poets we try to give flesh to abstractions and critique is an abstract concept that perhaps is seen as negative rather than positive by many. There are as many views of what critique is and along the continuum I have seen harsh knee capping and nauseous write ups where the person writing the poem writes a detailed account of what the poem is about detailing their ideas about the content, making their write up over shadow the piece.
Perhaps critique needs to be defined in the context of the group.
We live in an instant age and on facebook people are used to likes and loves and wows which is their impetus and only a few genuinely want to know the flaws in their work and how to improve them.

well, you already know well i am one of those few so have at it with my work

That is part of the purpose of this workshop- to educate people in the meaning of critique.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I totally agree that critique needs to be about the poetry not the person writing it. If the person writing were being interviewed it would be different but that is not the case with a poetry submission. Also sometimes a poet is looking for just one better word and it can be as simple as that. My difficulty is I get absorbed in the theme (or story) and lots of times I understand it wrong and feel a bit foolish.

One thing that seems counterproductive with critique is when a member comments on someone else's comment. This usually means there is an agenda that has not to do with the poetry and to me is a distraction.

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

I see it as a member writing a critique to be be diplomatic, as even a harsh crit can be delivered in a gentle manner. As it has been expressed to me in my life, it's not what you say but rather how you say it.
That is especially important with new or young members. More so with young members who have talent yet need to develop skills about which will lead them to a better place here and give us more of a sense of accomplishment with our vision of Neopoet.

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

Harsh critique can be sugar coated without losing its power. Too blunt feels like an attack on the poet.. its the poets baby that is being trashed.

This is an interesting quote from an author and poet taken from an interview.
NOTES FROM AN INTERVIEW BY WRITING NSW WITH FIONA WRIGHT ABOUT POETRY AND FEEDBACK

How has receiving feedback on your writing helped you develop as a writer?

It’s been integral, both in terms of developing the writing itself, and in helping me find a community of writers, which is essential, given that so much of what we do happens in isolation and inside our own heads. I’ve always found feedback to be incredibly useful in helping me figure out what my work is trying to do and other ways that I might go about doing that, and pushing me to try different approaches or ideas.
......
For me that so much happens in isolation in our heads, means we all need another eye to help us see different ways of thinking or where our work is a little opaque or we have fallen into clichè.

forgive me for this.
you an tell me to dry up my inks
you can tell me that my poem stinks
you can ask what am i trying to do
the piece is so bad it bothers you
you can tell me not to ever write a poem like that
it's okay i'll be willing to wear a new hat
if my poem in poetry does not belong
you need to tell me where and how i went wrong
are my metaphors illogical
my content pathological
are my rhymes too repetitious
tell the truth just don't be vicious
should i be turning when i'm spinning
the end is best as the beginning
could my cliches fill each ocean
does my poem pull your emotion
tell me what's real, tell me what's true
also tell me, to improve, what i could do

this was meant to be humorous but i did touch on many things i think are pertinent. i used lines referring to things i have been told, things i have seen others told. for example, a metaphor from u.s.a. may not make sense to someone from africa and vice versa. that does not mean either one has to go. this gets into target audiences, which i think need to be considered when giving feedback.

yes, I see the value in this, Cathy

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

A very comprehensive way to approach critique. I tend to disagree on the idea that a nursery rhyme is a bad thing, however as a habit it certainly is. When a nursery rhyme is composed with the idea that the outcome will indeed be a nursery rhyme, and it does, then it is a good thing, like any other form being what it is intended to be. But yeah, a habit of nursery rhyme form is not a good thing, so if that was Mark's intent with his expression then I agree.

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

I do agree that it is certainly worthwhile to advise the author about opinion. That it belongs to those giving it and the author has the choice of taking or leaving it. Also, what I said about how one says that is important. So far as reading out loud, it's a great thing and if one can hear their thoughts as Mark suggested that's a good way (I do that a lot). I do find that actually reading out load is fairly better than in my thoughts though.

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

There's much to be learned from all the comments offered above. All ye who thirst for knowledge listen to the experts. I'm all ears (indeed, with old age (nearing the 86 year mark), they seem to have gotten as big and flappy as those of my dachshund), but no kidding, your words of wisdom have fallen on fertile soil. Thank you, gents and ladies. Jerry

Jerryk?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

This word has for some reason come to have a negative repute. Not all critique needs to be negative. For a lot of writers who are thrashing around trying to find their voice (like me) it is important to know why a particular poem or part of a poem works as why iy doesn't. So when reading a poem which you enjoy or a part of it which you like then give some thought as to Why you like it. Then pass this on to the writer along with your thoughts on the shortcomings. This does two things: 1. It points out when and where the writer is doing well 2. It makes the writer more willing to listen to a critic if the critic shows he/she is willing to offer praise as well as criticism.

Now to a thorn. Should we offer alternative ways to say something? This is a problem in my opinion. I often suggest another way to write a line or stanza. Sometimes the author then inserts My lines when this is not what I intended them to do. I offer up alternatives mainly to get the author to see there ARE alternates but they should use their own as I can not ever be certain exactly what they want to say.........

when someone for the first time suggested a better line than mine (it was better in my opinion) i thought i could not use it - it would not then be my whole poem, but that one line would make it not mine. i have discussed this with many people and have realized that many poets, and very skilled and published ones, will sometimes use a line given to them. no one thinks the poem is then not entirely theirs. to me this is just editing. like if one had an editor. the substance of the poem, the subject matter, the meaning, is not changed by this one line, at least i have never seen this.so i learned to be willing to replace a word or two or a line and stop feeling like i had to say the poem was co-authored

what I would put in a critique have changed over the years - specifically my perspective on prescriptive grammar "rules", at the end of the day, my idea of critique has stayed the same: to share knowledge and learn together as writers on a peer-to-peer basis, with the poet's long-term improvement being more the goal than changing one poem one time. When some folks can't handle even the kindest and best intended critiques for their writing, or completely ignore all advice even though they've signed up for a community like Neopoet it's disheartening. The reader (who is a fellow poet here) puts a lot of effort into critique. As the poet, offering ourselves up for critique does require some vulnerability, but so does being the reader giving the critique. Sharing knowledge, offering our interpretation, being willing to say that we hope we can help and learn together, all requires vulnerability too. Yet, there are those for whom it's not vulnerability (as the reader or the poet): it's ego. Don't know if we'll ever solve that.

Kels

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Thanks so much, Kelsey.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I like the rhyme and it only breaks up a wee bit here and there. I would look a little at the third line. I think that changing it up a bit would give it a better flow. Maybe something like: "I never thought money or power"? nice little poem that shows what the author was thinking about when they were writing the poem. The title could be shorter; how about "What Gives You Passion?" language use is good and the theme is fair.It was consistent all the way through and began and ended well.

neopoet.com/workshop/poems/find-out-what-gives-you-passion

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

Rather than post that in 'reply' this should be in its proper place in the thread as a new comment.
I'm not being fussy, mate, it helps keep the dialogue coherent and less confusing if people don't have to scroll back and fourth on such a long thread. ok?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Be sure to read Kelsey, Swamp-witch,'s ideas above, she has been a most valued and erudite member for many years.

I have been so given to by seeing young or inexperienced members grow on this site.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I'm here, please add me to it.

Collins

please read this thread and the critiques members are now making on the 'Undiscovered poems' list.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Jess lol thanks a lot! You know there are some in the lost pile that do not deserve to be there at all, that is true. But, what to do if a write deserves to be trashed? Man o man I don't know. The only thing I could say on the one I did was that it's a good thing it is in rough draft mode. From my perspective it was a disaster and the author even says his writing will be perceived as bogus (in his profile) But I gave it a go and did not have much good to say about it.
So if anyone would like a look then here:
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/foreheads

Later,

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

an honest and useful critique.
I could not have done better.
Some typos in your own critique though? 'wring' for writing?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

so sorry you had to put up with that one I started to read it and stopped after I saw how it went on and on

New Workshop
critique for new and old

I think you were given an impossible poem to just write a critique on.
I dont think any poem deserves to be trashed. What you have to remember is this the poet is somebody who is writing in a second language exposed to African style poetry that is more opaque and flowery than our Western taste.
That said it was totally opaque. In my experience with such poems the only way to help is to be able to ask the poet what they are saying stanza by stanza to ask them to explain what they mean by the opaque metaphors and help the poet simplify their language. There is no way to make meaningful critique on a poem that one doesn't understand.

He's gotten 3 critiques or at least in-depth comments and has yet to give a single 'thank you'.
Life is short and I won't try and fix the world, but if you desire to try and help him out then by all means do.
There is plenty of work to do here in the USA with southern drawls and northern accents. Those alone can take years to clear out of a poet.
Best,

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

But you did a great job, especially going to the poet's profile and checking his other poems.
EVERYONE ELSE PLEASE NOTE..

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

excuse the typos there please, my eyes are not the best these days.
Later,

~Mark~

Know the candidates
and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
Voter's guide here:
https://www.neopoet.com/community/vote/guide

as to whether you wanted the critique posted here or on the poem or both. I left it on the poem but will be happy to post it here also. If you want it on both it might be a good idea to put the poem here too. OK here's my critique :
Greetings

Sorry I missed this one. What a sad description of living in a retirement center. I'd never even considered how the lack of children being around must affect people. I think perhaps the last stanza needs another line or two to reinforce the one about the lawn being mowed. Maybe something about the meals cooked and the clean hallways. Not being much of a free verser myself, this about the only fault I can find . Hmmmm......perhaps a few alliterations if you can figure out where to put them?.
Link
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/no-kids-live-here

Remember to post the link to the poem here so it's easy to find.
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/no-kids-live-here

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Stan's critque was well done. The pom itself does need another line of two as it felt incomplete to me I did not feel Stan should have made apologies for not knowing freeverse as well as he should as it was irrelevant to the critique itself

New Workshop
critique for new and old

I like how you started this with positive description. I dont think suggesting adding a few lines at the end about meals or cleaning would help the poem, fundamentally this is about feeling isolated in a one dimensional living environment I think.
A few things you could have concentrated on his title same as the first line so wasted .
The first line was maybe wasted as the first line ..its throwing the whole basis of the poem in at the start when maybe it should have been a reveal.
For me the children he alluded to were his children and they must be grown so they wouldnt add the noise and colour that was maybe lacking. The poem needs more of a story showing what the lack of children means to the poets environment. This was too much tell not enough show.

Thats my thoughts. Sam

Post your critique on the poem but it would be best if we did our critique of the critique here.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Did and done

awaiting 2 critiques I have read both and would like to see what you think of them

New Workshop
critique for new and old

yes.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

I'm in

Collins

see the participants list top left of page.
You prefer to be addressed as Collins rather than Umeh? Sorry, West African names confuse me a little. Here we normally address each other by our first names.

Please read this thread and soon you will be given a poem to critique.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Sometimes they require us to go the extra yards to help the poet, as Mark did, visiting the poet's profile and even their other poems.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Some poems in order to become real poetry require a LOT of changes. So at what point does offering a lot of suggested changes become rewriting a poem?

not really changing the poem.
We could all work on a poem for a writer but when it comes down to it, on these difficult circumstances, it seems to me about changing the poet. Sometimes ya just get off at the wrong stop and need to get back on the bus, hopefully with a long enough ride ya do change your plan of attack. I was that someone at one time, however I did have the desire to learn and change. It takes time and effort and a lot of smacks up the head-side. If you love the language then it is worth it. How many songs does a lyricist perform before it is a hit? How many hits does a lyricist have on average? In my opinion the same applies to poetry and a lot of other performing arts. We work at the craft because it is a craft.
Later,

~Mark~

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and vote for the upcoming Administrative Council.
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about whether your suggestions are for minor edits, revisions or a rewrite. That is useful feedback in itself.

And too right Mark. Critiquing can be exhaustive and at times futile but it can also be incredibly rewarding. How many poets have we seen recalcitrant and terrible at first become published academic poets, or at least really good poets?

ps Emeka is coming back, he just lost his password, and sounds enthusiastic. I found him on Facebook

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

IMHO I would pm the poet and suggest you work on changes together I have done this and it did help also if it is really awful I don't comment at all or see how receptive they are to a coule of changes

New Workshop
critique for new and old

PMs to members, especially from male to female members can cause no end of trouble.

PMs are meant for communication between friends.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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I believe poetry is, in Eisenstein's remark about film, 'compression of meaning'. I almost always write short and if the meaning is unclear, ok, I'm wide open but when someone just says they like it but want more I feel like saying "Well bloody well read it again and think about it."

Who said 'Always leave them wanting more'?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
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author comment

Bobby Womack, Emma Nichols and many more in many of the arts

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
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as I was revisiting the comments that are being left Jess never make me laugh when I am drinking coffee it makes a mess of the screen

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sorry

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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up and down the mountain

If I were to comment as I suggested above in this rotation: SOUND/LINE/CONTENT.
The work has no meter or cadence and is prose written to look like poetry. Starts anapestic (''at the TOP) and goes off in twenty different feet all over the place with no discipline. There is no beat, no consistent shape of sound.

The poetic lines run off with no set reason. The writer is just talking to us in lines broken to look like a poem. There are times that a pause works at the end of a line, and other times not.

As for content, there is no real point to it. A quaint description of a visit to a place with no moral, no narrative, no message, no poetic truths or metaphors. A bit embarrassingly adolescent with the chaffing balls. Just silly.

Very amateur poem, beginner level.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain by juju bee

And part of the point of this workshop is to actually leave a critique on the poem, not talk about how you might do it in the workshop.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
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You have all valid points why not share them with the author? Yes, perhaps juvenile but ya gotta give her credit for being in the midst of what she is writing about. That is one of my favorite ways to write as well.
I was a bit disappointed to leave a comment and not see anything by you there.
Later,

~Mark~

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I thought that the whoosh of yesterday's rain was the stream flowing down the mountain. I didn't connect the flapping boot to anything except the marking of time, when you are noticing little things lie the flapping of a boot sole. All-in-all, a good poem.
Geezer.
.

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

When he does a critique that is, and stops talking about how he might do it.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
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forgot what I was doing. I thought that Eumie's critique was rather brutal, showing no empathy or encouragement for the writer. He did not critique as though it were for the writer; it was more like crushing the poet, to a bunch of people at a party.
Geezer.
neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain
.

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

Could we put the applicable link(s) into the comment here?
It would be most helpful.
Thanks,

~Mark~

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I think his critique was too harsh. I suspect that it would be a good thing if a writer paid attention to later comments from a critic but when this harsh, without any real suggested changes, the author is likely to ignore any further critique from him. Surely there's something good to be said about the poem to give the author a bit of hope

Please post your critique on the poems page as everyone else has done. I don't think my instructions are unclear. Everyone else got it right.
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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As I was suggesting to Jess that there is the soft and polite criticism and the raw truth and opinion by a peer. As I said I would never want to hurt feelings, but here we are all peers and saying it as it is.
There is so little craft in the poem I’m reviewing it’s like, where do you start? Tell the author to take a course in “what is poetry 101”. I can only really spend the effort with poems that have some strengths, some obvious aspects that show the writer has put in some time in the craft.

Eumolpus
I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
ee cummings

is to bite the bit and dive into the murky depths of the 'Undiscovered Poems' list occasionally.
Be nice and lie if you have to but no poet left behind!

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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imo its better to say nothing than to lie. You are leaving the poem behind and takes your critique down to the level of Facebook likes.

interesting comment valued by who?

encouraged by a few innocuous lies, and nurtured with increasingly honest critique, gradually learn and grow and become really outstanding poets.

I'm in it for the long haul so I can afford to play such long-term strategies.

Valued in the general sense mostly by those of us who work the site. There is nothing empirical or official about it except if they start to give good critique on a regular basis we might honour them with an Advocates badge.

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

author comment

Alan an interesting critique, although I was wondering if you actually got the theme. I felt it was a little harsh to say it started at the beginning and ended at the end if that was as positive as you could be perhaps saying nothing would have been better. Talk about being damned by faint praise.
This was actually a very clever poem and critique is not just about negatives. Imo there was much to commend.
The juxtaposition of the two lifestyles... the metaphors.
The short lines and stanzas with enjambment across stanzas keeping the momentum.
I thought the repetition of Racing added to the poem and kept the alliteration of r across stanza 3.
There were lits of positives
Sam.

LOL ...well, 'adolescent'....she's been here 7 years so we know she's at least 7 years old... Ha!
Perhaps that bonk up the headside will wake her up a bit lol
You called it as you saw it ...kudos for you..
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/and-down-mountain
Later,

~Mark~

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lied just a little! At least said; that you looked forward to seeing how he had used the critique to make it better. yes, toward the end, you took your foot off his neck, but... ~ Geezer
.
https://www.neopoet.com/comment/170701#comment-170701

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

or Alan's?

cheers,
Jess
New Workshop!-
Critique For New And Old
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/critique-new-and-old

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