Many Thanks Mario...Your comments very appreciated my friend ;)

Hellooooo
Been re-reading about imagism i.e. Ezra Pound ...pairing the write down...its a tyranny that I love but will not put an end to my other love of clanking scrawl poems

Your kind comments really make my day IRiz
I'm exuberant you like the piece!!!

Warm Regards Z

My Dear IRiz I've been on numerous sites for the last, going on 3 years, where many writers live and let live by never saying much to each other and wither from the isolation, and it gnaws to tears. Every writer is reaching out for something, maybe for an affirmation of worth, or some ineffable intentness.
So every word we share with each other helps sustain. Your comments are like water in the desert

Having said that we run into walls, our own and each others at times, and like with everything we need devices towards transmitting, sometimes, the subtlest of thoughts or barley extant ideations and for that we need fuel, the language of academics. If we cant name it we cant claim it. Poetry being diverse, we get thrown off and on by each other from jumbling thoughts, word tangles or restrictive tyrannies, aspiring to order i.e. the abstinence and cruel practice of ridged adherence to some ideal. Are we not all shifting sands writing in melting wax staving off neglect?
So Yeah every comment you write sustains ! Every little word an encouragement!
So thank you very much, All you say is so very appreciated! VERY!

PS I look forward to your new posts as well

I don't understand this
that's how they get inside you (typo) is there a misspelling ?
…………….…………………………………..

Yes, If I understand you correctly I'm aware that I move from a general, we they etc. stance to an implied personal you "why don't you speak to me like you love me?" A contrast that seemed very important to me. The shift is meant to reframe the reader from the terror of the world soul as they are put upon by external forces, the planetary / architypes/ Gods. I'm the messenger of doom and situational awareness in this write yet personally still wanting to be treated with love, and kindness, after telling the them they are fated, and not free willed as they think I felt the need for this juxtaposition or as I think of it as the slave master wanting the affection of the slave. I see it as paradox.

"dance school arcade pinballs planets
twisting wraith flies flying in circles, circling
very acrobatic words which don't fit for me."

I get what your saying about the fit ...Could it be that we have different psychological needs?
Also these lines refer to the forces that move us through life...an astrological reference that are the set up for the next to last line "palace of tears"

Hard angles vs curves or specifically tacking between the concrete to the abstract
The question seems to be about degrees of ambiguity in a poem and how much the reader can tolerate before being off balanced or conversely find the shift a fascination

For example I see this with Plath in her use of symbolism and metaphor as at least in my myopic eyes as I read her poems. I could conclude that her poem is 2 poems, or mood shifts with hard borders and then fitting back together in the end. Its like being stoned by the time you finish the poem you cant remember how it started :)
I'm relatively new to this 3 yrs and no writers workshops so trying to work things out

Your criticism seem is sharp to me in that it has a real point of view. Its even cleansing
What I'm trying to figure out is where I stand and what I believe about styles, formulations,
etc. When I look at Ginsburg whom I love for his rangy ranting sort of enjambments makes the imagists look peakid Yet when I look at Pound whom I love for his polished incisive paired down writing Ginsburg can seem jumbling

As always so very much appreciate your comments
Many Thanks and warm regards
Z

I quite agree that a workshop poetry site is a huge plus For one thing it provides both points of interest and impetus to move forward. Your write wonderfully intricate.

"What I meant by too "acrobatic" was in sound- a real tongue twister in a poem that uses
a nice flow of sounds. Too much alliteration. As for the images in that stanza, also too condensed, too inaccessible to read and absorb. It's not about the meaning or inferences you might be wanting to say in that stanza, just about how to get there"...

So I'm struggling with the above a bit, I'm thinking when I read other poems perhaps I'm a lazy reader, or untrained, not noticing that well written poems do not shift in countenance On the other hand I'm looking at that acrobatics and alliteration as spice, a break which is what prompted me to do it. So why would one refrain from this impulse
It begs the question what is the writers responsibility and what is the readers?
Ex:
I'm dreaming of a white Christmas/ a black shadow bomb in the face splinters diamonds
i.e. Poems that express juxtaposition and meaning maybe obfuscated like asymmetrical experimental jazz requiring an assimilation, a different sensibility from the syncopated predictable

Yes confusing but does it not require of the reader to able to flow with a transition from the obvious concreate to stream of consciousness abstract
Having said that yes I can see that this maybe hurtful to the brain, perhaps like a scratch on a record. Ill drag into my cave and process it.

compare

dance school arcade pinballs planets
twisting wraith flies flying in circles, circling
in black mother
like hands on a clock
conveyance of ardor
born in the
palace of tears

do you like this better

dance school
arcade of globes
in the dark mother
we her children
are born in the
palace of tears
….
less is more?
...

"It takes six or eight years to get educated in one's art, and another ten to get rid of that education".
Ezra Pound
By 90 ill have a clue ;)

"it just fits more in the poem for me, gives me a chance to breathe between images"..

So in the final analysis you can breathe a bit easer, This goes to the heart of what perplexes.
I don't breathe better I tend to thrive better fluid flights, lotsa elbow room.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you
I perceive you as the arbiter, the Judgement and that if I obey you ill write right. The fact is that this poetry business is all somewhat subjective, a matter of interest and opinion which changes the nature of the workshop review as i perceive it in relationship to you
It must be clear that what is said save typos is merely an opinion Criticism in poetry is about neurolinguistics i.e. writers and readers with distinct needs wants, who model, pace, mirror in different modalities i.e. psychological schisms

My opinion is its not about what's "good", because it varies as does the beholder
Its not about telling Its about explanations
Its about asking questions 'Socratic Method" Thats how artists of all kinds find themselves, renaissance and evolve,

Not to belabor the point but there use too be barroom brawls between the abstract expressionist and the classically trained figurative artist in my grad school years, and that was faculty
and that was the 70s Seen from this vantage point it was ridiculous. Both where dated

I can dispose them but quite frankly I respect you to much to do that very easily I'm trying to sort out what is what When the unenculturated look at an abstract painting, they have no idea what their looking at, They cant distinguish beautiful cohesive forms from chaos.

There are 2 kinds of comments:
one giving me the sensation of HUH? I wonder about the bias of the giver.
The other being a recognition that excites and a learning experience.
The key here is bias vs objectivity.

Having said that, I'm sure it is difficult for you to get up the edge for a criticism It is not at all lost on me. While I reserve the right to push back which is the device I need to clarify and explore new influences please don't dare think for a single moment that I do not look forward to your reviews and appreciate what you say, and the energy you give . Your comments remain always food for thought and very interesting.
There are challenges and frustrations with being a mentor and rough spots in the reception of ideas and advice, especially with out fully developed context on my part . I get what you are saying about acrobatic and alliteration I see the value of the softer touch you recommend. Its less convoluted , paired down and goes down easier It also begs the question in the broad sense what is temperament and what is just unwitting
.Best Always
Z

PLS!!!! ;0)

Yes!!!!! IRiz living belief who needs the word your ...good call!!...changed

Yes we cobble our word puzzles together looking for order that doesnt kill mystery
A release from meaning with the ineffable charm of ambiguity but not so much as to commit the sin of obfuscation.

Thank You.... The Best
Z