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RHYME PATTERNS (let's begin)

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description:An exploration of how various rhyme patterns can be used

Leader: scribbler
Moderator(s): Mark

Objectives: To get folks to start considering using different rhyme patterns and showing the almost infinite variety of these patterns

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: How rhyme pattern can be used in poetry

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
12 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Wednesday, February 24, 2021 to Wednesday, March 24, 2021
Short description: 
An exploration of rhyme patterns and their uses

Comments

I assume so because I don't see a time and the site is international but I just want to make sure.

The shop will begins approx 11:00 AM EST. It will move along but I also realize sufficient time must be allowed for all time zones to participate. This being said please be patient because this shop Can't go as quickly as if we were all in a single time zone

author comment

OK folks I forgot about a 10 o'clock Dr. appointment so let's go ahead and begin the discussion.
Rhyme patterns are fairly easy but also difficult to define because there are so many types. So let's start off by each of ya'll giving your idea/definition of what a rhyme pattern means to you. I'll be back around noon to check up on ya'll

author comment

Not exactly. What you are referring to is unforced rhyme. A hard thing to achieve especially in a long poem.

author comment

the best rhyming goes unnoticed. I have come across a few of these beauties and didn't realize the rhyme until someone else mentioned it in a comment. Then I went back, had a look and thought wow! Sorry for the edit but it feels so natural ya don't notice it. Natural!

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

This is what all rhyming poets strive for and it is the uses of rhyme patterns which can make this easier to achieve.

author comment

Mark, is this still open? How do I apply?
Thanks ... Mike

are in

author comment

I think of it as one of the ways to impose structure on a poem so that it avoids being prose with line breaks, and one that delights the ear. I know there is also eye rhyme but I tend to think of rhyme in terms of sound.

The pattern of a rhyme debates the repetition and placement of rhyme within a poem. I'll give some examples in next comment. BTW in this shop we will only deal with end rhymes where the rhyming words occur at the end of each line.

author comment

AABB--the first and second lines rhyme then the third and fourth eg.
My love is like a clear spring day
whose golden sunbeams go their way
and suddenly explode in dew
to sparkle once again like new

ABAB..in which line one and three rhyme and line two and four rhyme eg.
These tall and somber grey pine trees,
I won't begin to guess how old.
whose tops, only, are moved by breeze
mask memories of tales untold.

ABBA..the first and last line rhyme and the second and third line rhyme..eg
I wring the water from some air
then inhale a drippy breath
in a forest near as still as death,
a place I go but seldom share,

Ok these are three rhyme patterns and you might notice the the first one has an almost sing song sound to it and the others not so much. This is mostly a result of the differing rhyme patterns.

author comment

Write a stanza using AABB rhyme pattern. At this point I encourage your thoughts on what has been discussed so far
BTW This is all we will do for the next 20-24 hours so those in different time zones will have time to catch up

author comment

They met in a town of diverse faces,
colors, accents, religions and races,
southerners, northerners, gentiles and jews
immigrants, natives -- but only a few.

Mark, my question is: does the pattern in the opening stanza have to be maintained throughout a long poem?
Can it be broken up with stanzas of different patterns like ABAB?

The above stanza is the first of 15 still in progress. Maintaining the meter and end rhyme has been a challenge.

Thanks ... Mike

How does it feel? Do you stop at any point because of the changes? Read it out loud to someone or to a recording. Rhyme patterns with certain meter throughout is asking a lot like a Sonnet but I find that I have a natural line length of 9 syllables so if I am working with a Sonnet-like structure (I doubt I ever call them Sonnets) I can feel 9 and the rhyme is a whole other world as trying not to force a pattern becomes very difficult. The old masters and some modern experts can make their own language to bring it all together.

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

There are a few forms which Require a pattern change but not many. But usually the pattern is expected by the reader to be maintained. It is this plus the difficulty of maintaining a decent flow which makes rhyming poetry such a challenge

author comment

The last 2 lines would maintain perfect rhyme by minor change to"immigrants , natives all in the news

author comment

Alan: Your critique makes perfect sense. Thank you.

I believe the last word of the line need be considered carefully as the next line needs to end with the same sound.
Does the same sound make it a rhyme or does the same sound at the end need be spelled the same?

It is such a simple thing you know
To plant a seed we do call to sow
It may turn into a grown up sap
Under this tree I may take a nap

Some may say asking for a rhyme pattern is to try and make a poet a cookie cutter poet but I think it broadens the poets horizon or gives a poet more tools - makes a poet more diversified.

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

rhyme requires either forethought on the next line or ability to change a line which has already been written. Now as to the second thing, the Sound needs to be the same. In a multisyllabic word the last syllable is what matters. This brings up something else. Accents. In some accents grain and again sound the same in others it doesn't.In Southern American (the only True English lol) Again rhymes with gin.

author comment

I love hearing the French speak in English. All I ever got on English spoken by northern Americans is corrections.
I'm pleased that sound makes the rhyme.

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

line 1 and 3 rhyme but the other 2 are near rhyme.

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got it

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except the pattern you posted is ABAB not AABB

author comment

good

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While bees are keen on honey,
men prefer sweet money.
If nectar dearth affects one or the other,
you will see bee against bee, brother against brother.

What do you think about this particular pattern?

author comment

I prefer ABAB. It does have a very strong beat, though. "It's got a good beat and you can [skip] to it." :)

patterns too. The real trick is in choosing the poem which a particular pattern best suits.Most people (including myself) are not able to do this every time

author comment

of lines asked for. I'll ask you also what your opinion of this scheme is

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Does rhyme work best in comedy (you also mentioned Limerick)?

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

I ran a shop a while back on humor in poetry. In my opinion funny is funny in whatever form

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What are your opinions on mixing rhyme pattern?

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Looking forward to learning! AABB - seems to hold a "cheerier" rhythm than most other rhyming patterns.

It took a little bit of time
to come up with this workshop rhyme,
but here it is, my stanza dear
for those to read, both far and near.

to join in. This shop values All opinions

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It's late here. I'll be back in about 7-8 hours

author comment

Please just trust, it’s nothing bad
I need to destroy the.......................................................... evidence
Just a little something driving me mad
It won't win a prize for......................................................... elegance
reverence
92
precedence
92
benevolence
92
decadence
92
severance
92
irreverence
92
prevalence
92
malevolence
92
seroprevalence
92
inheritance

Elegance ...........................84 rating
I was not quite happy with elegance
so I went hunting to rhyme zone and found elegance is okay

but with a lower rating you may decide....... others have a rating of 92

Well we are more concerned with patterns in this shop than with the most perfect rhyme. Nice to have you drop in. Sure you don't want to join?

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I seldom read my own stuff out loud until it is finished by I apparently have an "eye" for rhyme because I seldom have to change words to achieve it. Now rhythm is another thing lol

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We are awaiting DiPrima and agirllostinspace to complete their exercises. If you are having problems with the assignment please say so. Shops are for learning but I can't teach if you don't ask (Heck I can hardly teach if yo Do ask lol)

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I already posted an AABB stanza. So sorry! Was there something else up to this point? I will find a former poem and change it to AABB.
Thank you!
L

Came back to edit. I feel I should no longer participate in the workshop - I don't want to make the group wait. Thank you all for understanding.
L

All good, but I really feel it may move a bit faster than I realized.
Thank you so much and I hope you all enjoy!
L

I would love to continue, but please don't let me slow things down if I'm running behind. My poetry mode is super-duper slow sometimes. Off to find a free verse to transform to AABB!
Thank you! Thank you!
L

exercise will be given a MINIMUM of 24 hours to complete and most will be given more. So no real rush

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Many thanks!
L

That's what I get for only swimming this morning. But we still have to wait a bit on others.

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All good! I really feel I may not be able to keep the pace necessary. Thank you so much, Stan. Good luck with the workshop and enjoy!
Many thanks!
L

won't be a sprint

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I am eager to participate and learn, but please do not let me interrupt your schedule or routine. I'll go now and hunt down that free verse and try to transform into an AABB.
Thank you!
L

Thank you! There certainly may be days I might lag behind! :)
L

let's pick out a favorite free verse stanza and change it to an AABB rhyming stanza. Post the free verse then put the rhyming stanza beneath it. I'll start:
There's a man I never met before
yet I know him just the same
and think about him often times
as I pass by a ruined tree stand.

There is a man I never met
but I feel I know him even yet
when I pass by this ruined tree stand
in this ancient forest grand

author comment

will suffice

author comment

one lady introduced her own brand of rhyme----- all aaaaaaaaaaa
land bands and grand hand sand and so on she also created some meaningless ones

You may examine scribbler our teacher...i just come to see ur progressing interesting festering lingering herring so I can also signal and as and when ring in final lol

If you show up in this workshop one more time I will add you to the roster hahaha
I mean it too

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

"You will not tame this sea
either by humility or rapture.
But you can laugh
in its face."
from The Sea and The Man by Swir
----------------------------------------------------
You will not tame this ocean
either by rapture or devotion
But you can caper
in its face

That second couplet was rough.

But with a bit of grace
Laugh in its face

I think adaptation may be necessary along with some improvisation because sometimes there is no rhyme so ya need to make adjustments and create an opportunity for one.

What do you think?

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

that is a good idea. Thank you.

and face?

author comment

try for closer rhymes from here out. I suspect there are members not quite ready for the more esoteric rhymes

author comment

Oh, my.
Some 130 million miles away
you decide to plant yourself
on the shores of another world -
red with rust.

All over the news this one fine day
One hundred thirty million miles away
You made it to another world, so we must
See nothing is there but dry red rust

It can take a bit of juggling

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

This looks familiar! :) You've done a great job with this Mark! You've made it look easy!
Thanks!
L

All in one stanza how nicely done!

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

Why not?
lol

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

so this workshop is a certain challenge for me.

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

Preferable the original posted above the other

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Everybody so far is doing well. We will wait until about 9:00 PM EST this evening on the ones running behind

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To all who think they can't get their message across unless it's in free verse....it Can be done and everybody can do it

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Thank you for posting this poem. I looked up this poet and read some of his other work and appreciate it very much.

From OCDC

The bar of soap
sits precisely in the shower
with the dove resting upright
lest she feels the need to fly.

The soap, smelling of coneflower
sits precisely in the shower
with the dove resting upright
lest she feels the need to take flight.

L

good

author comment

::smiles::

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

We will next cover a classic pattern which has been used by generations of poets. The pattern is ABAB. Thought it might look more difficult it actually isn't because by rhyming every other line the writer has more "space" in which to work a rhyme without it seeming forced. So for this exercise we will post a four line stanza using the ABAB pattern. I'll start it off :

I saw an old gate today
made of wood on a stone wall
it sagged so badly it wouldn't sway;
deteriorated says it all

author comment

Yesterday the sky was blue,
today the sky is gray.
Rain and threatening clouds rushed through
and chased the sun away.

L

See how this pattern give the writer more freedom of expression?

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The 3rd line is a bit forced I think but this shop is mainly about patterns so you did well

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To make my kitchen remodel final
about floors I needed to think.
Would tile, linoleum, or vinyl
better handle a flood from the sink?

target and good message lol

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Deep in the forest I was with this fox
Her birthday it was and we were so bold
She got the present of ants in her box
Recalling that story with laughter retold

Could I get more natural?
True story. She never forgot that and I always had a good laugh. RIP

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

because of what I visualize about her having ants in her box lmao. Very good

author comment

Is it ever a good idea to mix rhyme patterns?

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If sonnets count, then yes!

I would need to try it and see.
A Sonnet hmm line 13 and 14 GG hmm that works but what about trying other mixes? Like is there a mix that certainly does not work?
I don't know..

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

I have yet to write a sonnet that satisfies me. Each one is too blatant that syllable counting was done

author comment

sometimes break a rhyme scheme especially in last stanza to sum up and emphasize the message. Then there's "Morphing" poetry..........

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Either write or post a 4 line stanza with an ABAB pattern.........then below it post a stanza which maintains the message but changes the end line rhymes. For a change I'll wait until all others have done this.
P.S. Had a hard day. Gonna hit the hay and see ya'll in the morning. In the mean time feel free to keep contributing to the conversation

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You are correct. And sometimes the revised piece can be better than the original. But this exercise is intended to let people see that when stuck on a stanza because you can't find the "right" rhyme and still maintain message it is sometimes easier to start the stanza from scratch

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Alan, I get hung up on maintaining a structure from stanza to stanza. If I start out with an iamb -- ta DAH, ta DAH, ta DAH -- can subsequent stanzas be DAH ta, DAH ta, Dah ta, etc.? Can I mix them up as long as the rhythm and flow are there? To me, end rhymes are easier to achieve than maintaining iambs throughout. Are there general rules about this?
Mike

there are general rules dealing with meter and even rules which allow for which meter can mix well with other meters. But this shop is not concentrating on meter, it is dealing with rhyme patterns. I expect there will be future shops which will deal with meter that will answer any questions you might have on meter.

author comment

Here is a switch in meter from my first stanza -- "They met in a town o diverse faces..." Is that okay.

Tino was Italian with roots in Sicily.
Molly was a country girl from middle Tennessee.
She was night and he was day,
but opposites attract they say.

or ... should a weak beat be added at the start of each line to maintian the meter set in the first stanza:

Now Tino was Italian with roots in Sicily
and Molly was a country girl from middle Tennessee.
Yes, she was night and he was day
but opposites attract they say.

An Italian guy was he:
charming, suave and handsome.
A country girl was she
with looks and ways quite winsome.

A nice stanza with the right pattern. Like any well written stanza it makes one want to read the next one lol

author comment

You just proved my above comment. by starting over again you improved the rhyme while maintaining message

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I went to visit my Patty today
Her door was locked there was no key
I pressed a button and started to say
When her voice said, “Hello?” to me

An easy walk downhill it was then
When Patty and I would play in her den
But just my luck to hit a brick wall
As her doorbell just didn’t work at all

The call station where Pat lives has been broken for months now. That's housing for ya!

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

You realize you broke pattern don't you?

author comment

Re-Reading the exercise hmm..Nope I got it so where did I break it?

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

I'll blame being tired lol

author comment

I set sail on a seven-mast schooner
to an island in the sea.
I would have reached land sooner
if my sea legs had accompanied me.

On a seven-mast schooner I sailed
toward a tropical Pacific isle,
but the brawn in my wobbly legs failed,
and I found myself floating the Nile.

Hope I did this correctly! A very fun and challenging exercise!
L

Change. And those legs must have almost come off to carry you that far off course lol

author comment

They were floating behind me! Just wanted to pass along the word that I will not be returning until later this evening - suppertime. 6:00-ish EST.
Thank you!
L

return when you can. Nobody can be here all the time

author comment

If you are superstitious, you'll never walk on cracks
When you see a ladder you will never walk beneath it
And if you ever spill some salt you'll throw some 'cross your back
And carry 'round a rabbit's foot in case you need it
from Superstitious by Shel Silverstein
------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are superstitious, on a crack you'll never halt
When you see a ladder, underneath you'll never go
And you'll throw some 'cross your back if you ever spill some salt
And just in case you need it, wear a cornicello

Now for the uninformed like me what the heck is a cornicello?

author comment

It's an amulet that looks like a hot pepper used to ward off the "evil eye." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornicello

Yes, Mark should have taken one to Patty's den.

Yup!

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

Agirllostinspace and DiPrima have both been AWOL and have neither one returned PM about their not showing up. I'm not going to kick them out but from now on I will not be waiting on them before moving on to next exercise.
One other thing, this line is getting bulky. Any objections to me opening up another page?

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I will post my stanza then set up page 2

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These old ones write in the old style
with a flow of near perfection
with tales that make folks cry or smile
or pause and give them deep reflection.

These old poets write in the old way
and every one with perfect flow
telling a tale of their own day
so latter ones like us will know

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Any comment on my exercise should be on this page. I will post page two in an hour or so

author comment

that your lines changed in length, when I was reading yours
and when I did my own, I was convinced that it would be very hard to
make the lines the same length as the ones before. I think this says something about
the reason why people find rhyming so hard. It takes a bit of forethought to make the
lines the same pattern and rhythm and rhyme too.

Being a rhymer, comes natural to me
And I have a leg up on you
Sorry to be so late, but you see
I had so very much to do

It comes natural, my love of rhyme
One up and stand on one leg
You see I'm sorry, I'm not on time
Your pardon, I'm going to beg.
.

My chatroom is taking a break
if you have ideas about times that
are more convenient and subjects
to talk about, contact me and we can discuss it
Thank you for your participation.
.

shop deals with rhyme patterns not rhythm.I am not capable of running a shop on perfect scansion

author comment

I wasn't trying to change the workshop, it was just an observation. How did I do?
.
.

My chatroom is taking a break
if you have ideas about times that
are more convenient and subjects
to talk about, contact me and we can discuss it
Thank you for your participation.
.

reminding the entire shop so we didn't stray from course

author comment

Is there now a page two?
Thanks!
L

But none-the-less I had to say the end rhymes alone in order to see there was rhyme and a pattern ABAB.
That is the skill I was talking about early on in this shop. Very natural!
Great,

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

can be used to avoid rhymes which seem forced

author comment

A forced rhyme usually stands out and is obvious.

THE MARK
Please comment anywhere anytime.

not always to a beginner

author comment

May I join?

Chrys

check out our chat room open to all 24/7

Can I sign up for the remaining exercises?............PJ

getting really late..................but I'll let you in on condition you review the entire shop up to this point. Leave a comment here and there to let me know you have done this. Welcome aboard

author comment

Thank you Scribbler,
Be careful what you wish for.........

"That is a great self portrait." - no Alan, the ears are far too small.

Scribbler, I live in US/CT and have found it hard to keep up with when one lesson starts and the next begins. Especially since the sidebar dates are slow in changing. I think it would be helpful if "Assignment 1" or "Lesson 1" -- along with the date it was assigned -- were displayed more prominently. This is my first workshop, so forgive the dumb questions, but since you are the leader/teacher, I assume all assignment responses are directed to you and that your comments are the ones I should most heed. Others can offer constructive criticism, I understand that, and I suppose my two-cents can be thrown in as well. But, as they say down home, "you da man" Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks ...
Mike DiPrima

I'm not CST but I also think numbering the assignments would help, especially since the threads get long. I feel like I missed an assignment somewhere but am not sure.

Agree. Numbering assignments would help.

That's a good idea but don't ya'll think it might be a bit late to ask me to go back and label each assignment? DiPrima, perhaps by just reading my posts you can determine when each assignment begins?

author comment

now! Just with a date.

But there are few assignments let..........

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Stan:i

The last line of this stanza feels okay to me, but technically is it too long and is the near-rhyme okay?

And so they wooed and got betrothed,
but before they dared to take the oath
the parents had to meet each other --
the Sicilian Cicirellis and the Tennessee Caruthers.

since this shop is dealing with rhyme pattern the flow or scansion is not that important.In third line you could write "The parents had to meet all others" would tighten up the rhyme without affecting message I think.

author comment

Glasgow
a rhyming poem by John Hegley

as we walk across the bridge across the Clyde
I talk of the tide
and the spring
and the spring in the suspension
but do not mention our tension
is there any hope of a bridge over that divide
Stephen
a rope even
or must we remain as strangers
like the Pope and Glasgow Rangers

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