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Haiku and English Language

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Even among old traditional schools of Haiku
there was a question whether 5-7-5 is the only way to structure the message.
But structure is needed to keep the text dense, to concentrate the content to its limits, to make it to ring like a tight string.

cold wind
branches swing
ruffled feathers

branch swings
birds hold on
winter berries

woke up
looked outside
silent winter

I I have realized that English is a short word language that needs different rules to keep a poet to the point. Here I suggest a 2-3-4 structure to explore the capacity of English language for forming brief multifaceted poetic message.
What do Neopoets think?
Let's do something that would distinguish our poetic face from any other groups and movements.
If not neohaiku, perhaps something else?

I guess a good Afternoon Nap has given you a new idea....In my opinion the name of the new form you have proposed need not have "haiku" in it like you have proposed "neohaiku" ...may be a "trimplet" for a suggestion...

Whatever it may be called, the idea is innovative and will challenge me to concise the script to 2-3-4 ..

thanks for tickling my mind...and I am sure of others too..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Trim part is cute. It reflects the idea of briefness.
What is Latin or Greek of short or trim or cut?
Let me check.

IRiz

author comment

think once
brood over it
for clarity

A theme
will emerge
into a verse

verses
like chain links
create poems

raj (sublime_ocean)

I think it looks stunning. Great try.

IRiz

author comment

thanks for appreciating my maiden effort at this crisp form...IO couldn't hold back to have a go at it :)

Regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Here are some more examples
I think there should be some sort of image or refference to memories of the reader

window
thunderstorm
smell of young apples

young grass
is my love
rain on my roof

awake
wanderlust
it's time to leave

IRiz

author comment

'''young apples
young grass''

young is too close
also may indicate
to a reader
paucity of words

why copy Japanese 5 7 5 style
if you are going to establish a similar pattern
let a poet be free

three small lines

'''convey immense
a challenge
to concentrated brevity''

just forget strictures of syllablizing

raj is a wonderful poet

''hope you know
each poet ought to be
independently U N I Q U E''

Of course you are free, but also you could try some structure and see what it does for you. I like it because structure makes poem more engaging and more to the point.
Repetition is okay sometimes, it enhances.
BTW, all of those are separate poems.They linked by a theme though.

IRiz

author comment

be not slave
to syllables
I rarely ever
count
yet words from my lips
dismount

Try a new thing for once. Hear me out, please.

IRiz

author comment

two swans
beak to beak
savoring love

her scratch
left memoirs
in the aftermath

not tears
but emotions
drenched the tissue

raj (sublime_ocean)

I really love short forms!

This reminded me of the cinquain: http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/cinquain.htm

Kelsey

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www.lettereddandy.xyz

I am glad we are on the same page.
Looking forward to seeing if you are interested to write something in the suggested format:

Three stanza each has three lines 2-3-4 syllabi

Also if you like it could you think of the name for it?

IRiz

author comment

If we want to distinguish a new English form why not make the syllable count a little looser? Something like 4-6 syllables for first line, 6-8 syllables for second then back to 4-6 for final. Kind of a semi-free form Haiku.

You can write a loose poem, Basho for example was not really fixed on the rule.
But I suggested the short form the way it is, because it disciplines my mind, helps to shedd extra words and
with the structure 2-3-4
it grabs your attention in first line as if almost yelling, then gradually builds explanation.
It forces reader to imagine the rest.
The more syllabi the less attention per one

IRiz

author comment

What are you calling this form?

Do you like neohaiku?
Nanohaiku?
TrimHikeu?
I think to keep the approach of free form, alliteration, allusion, personification, symbolic language.
Maybe have them combined by three stanzas .
I have more examples if you want.This time I combined three stanza in one poem called Home.

Home

love it
smell of coffee
and your sweet skin

ready
park opened
head of the trail

tired
lost in thoughts
in a good way

IRiz

author comment

which likely comes as a shock lol. But the essence of a Haiku or Semryu is the capture of a thing in an extremely brief form. I would maybe suggest using up to 4 lines before I'd allow multiple stanzas. If you want a more learned opinion you might contact Barbara Writes as she kinda specializes in things of Japanese nature

i know i know
it is only three lines in haiku
and five in tanka
i wanted to do something like one author renga
if you know what i mean
a collection of haiku united by one theme

(this conversation becomes tiresome)
i should probably stop trying explaining myself
i do not need it after all

IRiz

author comment

Please do not give up on what you have started. I am happy that something new / innovative form is getting evolved. So please stay tuned.

Regards and cheers!

raj (sublime_ocean)

Have tried 3 stanzas proposed by you in the trimmed format

crackling
barbecue
appetizing

gather
get together
under moonlight

delight
sing and dance
making merry

let me have your shout on this...

raj (sublime_ocean)

I think it is a fantastic write, my friend.
It melts in my mouth!!! So appetizing!
In exchange I would like to offer a next step in development of the form. I mooved one line from the middle to the bottom, how do you think it works?

painting
of dry leaves
hangs on my wall
I choose
what I deserve
should I
overturn
the evil boss
inside my head?
I think shifting the line destroys the form, not sure I would do it again.

Also one more precisely by the rule

still dark
before dawn
quiet snoring

wake up
my darling
life is so short

let's go
to the shore
to watch dolphins

And what do you think about this one?

moonlight
fireflies
quiet snoring

am I
the only one
who is awake?

Why do
I miss things
I never had?

IRiz

author comment

The 3 stanza series, 2 of them are very good...

However i didn't catch what you meant in

"mooved one line from the middle to the bottom, how do you think it works?
painting
of dry leaves
hangs on my wall
I choose
what I deserve
should I
overturn
the evil boss"

I didn't understand where the last line would normally have been

Let's keep this 2-3-4 and three stanzas going...i am enjoying the challenge

raj (sublime_ocean)

I agree. Here I fixed the second one. Now it is more clear what I wanted to say.

painting
of dry leaves
on my wall

I pick
what I think
I deserve

Shall I
be kinder
to myself?

The poem addresses how we often restrict our own creativity and desires and afraid to succeed. What do you think?

IRiz

author comment

I think you have got me addicted to this form of poetry you innovated :)

She called
was silent
disconnected

I knocked
knuckles hurt
heard her silence

back home
her bouquet
with sorry note

This was on the theme "Actions speak louder than words"

Regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

BEAUTIFUL POEM MY FRIEND!!!

IRiz

author comment

Thanks IRiz for your appreciative comment. It will act like tonic to inspire me to write more especially in this laterally and vertically crimped, challenging and stimulating form. In fact I would like more to contribute to this form.

Regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

I can only say Ah!

Regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Kinda like this one?

*I caught the Haiku flu and decided to bring this back from old site

In the spirit of poetry crossing all cultural boundaries, I shall present the poem and then translations.

............Classic Japanese
...PEACE
Peace and calm prevail
lending all contented lives
a goal to strive for

............Southern "Redneck"
...PEACE
Hey ya'll be cool now
we'll git some grits and collards
then lay in the shade

..............Oh so Proper British
....PEACE
Oh! I say old bean
if it's not too much bother
please decrease volume

.......New Jersey or Bronx
...PEACE
Hey youse dumb mother
shuddup 'fore I bust your face
yeah I'm talkintayou!

.........Type "A" Personality
...PEACE
Peace at any cost
long as I'm unaffected
who cares about you

..........Obama
...PEACE
Yes I am for peace
will appoint a peace czar
it is not my fault

..........Australian
...PEACE
'Ello there my mate
fuck you and your stupid peace
but in a good way

.......Arab Terrorist
...PEACE?!?
There will be no peace
until Great Satan is dead
I will kill you now

..........Bill Clinton
...PIECE
Yes, I'd like that piece
is she from Moorehead city?
no blue dresses please

........Ozzy Osbourne
...PEESE
Hey....uh.....oh...Sharon!
whut?..uh...uh...oh yeah..ah!...uh
yeah man...um....uh..dude!

........Tommy Chong
...PEAS
SEE ABOVE^

I hope this will leed to better unnerstanding between poets and.......hmmmm.......what was I saying?

Hahaha. Good morning!!!
Thanks for bringing a comic note.

IRiz

author comment

Stan...as always you are so very humorous...

regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Here I was trying to be serious lol

Have you seen RAJ poem just above here with a sorry note. It is super good!

IRiz

author comment

A name for the form? Duotriquat? Sounds cool and intelekshool, eh?
I love
this short form
elegance rules!

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Hi Jess. Welcome to the discussion. Thank you for
your elegant words in support.
I was trying to use longer than three stanza and noticed that the poem becomes more dilute.
Here is the example

big eyes
funny fur
around ears

wobbly
on their feet
still half-asleep

caws
call to me
"join us, Irene"

I am
a runner
don't like to stop

but I
joined the herd
and I love it

I think that three lines in three stanza
with nine (2-3-4) syllabi each is the trick that makes it.
I think you caught the idea and the suggested name reflectes it well. The only thing that makes me want to twig it further is the way it sounds. Maybe I have to get used to it, the word is new.

IRiz

author comment

That's a helluva an achievement!

I look forward to working with it.

Someone once said (maybe me) poetry is the art of compression of meaning.

less words
can make more
with elegance.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

My dear friend, thank you for your kind support.
I completely agree with you about compression.
After all we should use just key words to open readers hearts and imagination, let's enchant them with the rhythm and inspire to fill the blanks with their own sweat and blood in necessary. Hahaha.
On the serious note, because of English phonetics I was always puzeled whether the patterns of stressed syllabi defines the rhythm of English poem.
There is often a good degree of freedom where to put this stress in the line. On the other hand, there is a solution for that in a stress free languages such as Japanese! Haiku. The overwhelming success of the style is probably due to the compression but also the estetics of the structure. Patterns and symmetry when recognized feel awarding!

IRiz

author comment

Good to see you visit this page and join in supporting this new emerging poetry form which as you must have found out from the streaming messages is the Baby of our friend here IRiz. Hope you find it stimulating and challenging ...i do ...looking forward to more posts ....this one posted by you is good....try the three stanzas too...

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Hello Molly, welcome to the forum.
What a glorious and sweet addition!
It is a good question you asked, I think the word flowers has three syllabi. It feels too long for the form. But I am not sure. Again real poem stands above the rule and if you feel the necessary to deviate from it to deliver meaning better I would go for it.
roses
pot-pour-ri
glorious scent

I like much more this stanza is just great.
Perhaps I know why you replaced
Roses. Is it because you do not want a symbolic meaning this particular flower carries?
About second stanza I try not to brake the line where you don't pause while reading aloud. Particle "a"
belongs to the following line. You can also put more info there. For example making emphasis on whatsyrup does, it would be obvious to the reader that you taking about flower nectar. But maybe just use nectar. The last stanza is unfinished. But nevertheless it looks like a great try all together. Here is my take, but maybe you want to say something completely different about roses their smell sweetness and bees?

roses
pot-pour-ri
glorious scent

sweetness
enchanting
people and bees

hungry
tireless
buzzing crowds

I added the twist with people to show that there is a lot more room in the form. I think I did it because of your strong word hungry it immediately asked my attention. Write something different if you did not want to go towards their hunger too much and focus more on flowers

IRiz

author comment

Looking forward to hearing from you, I agree about clarity

IRiz

author comment

Discourse.
It has been sadly missing and your have reopened it.
You have proven yourself an invaluable member.
I can not adequately express my gratitude and appreciation.
Thank you.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Thank you for being such a nice host. I feel welcomed and thankful for stimulating, inspiring and very kind interactions.
Some of the comments are not annonced and I find them manually by going over the stream :(

IRiz

author comment

Ups

IRiz

author comment

Ups?...sorry I am not familiar with its expanded form.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

But rules are for breaking. I tried a series of thematically joined haiku/senyrus called 'Haikookas'.
https://www.neopoet.com/node/2669
What do you think?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I love the collection. Posted comments on your wall.

IRiz

author comment

三句
Sunku
Literally means three phrases
One potential name for the new form
to empathize the connection to haiku tradidition.
What do you think?

IRiz

author comment

Cool! Sunku it is!
Are there any Japanese speakers here who could suggest ion anything else?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I send the question to my Japanese friend Rika Inami she is a published author of prose and tanka. Also she has a cosmotanka website where she posts English and other languages poetic replyes to her poems. Sort of renga on line. Let's see what she thinks about the name.

IRiz

author comment

I once had a Japanese girlfriend, who was admittedly psychotic, who told me the was no word in Japanese for romantic love. Could you clarify that at the same time?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

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