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A Suggestion

enjoy poems.

Lou,

I have emailed Andrew asking for an addition to our profiles where we can post our back catalogue work, just for people to read with no need of comments...my idea can easily incorporate new works that you don't want critiqued...that said, this is a workshop forum so some may ask why bother posting pieces you don't want critiqued!

The back catalogue was for previously posted and critiqued work that has fallen into the abyss since the crash.

I'll watch this posting closely and see what feedback you get.

HS

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Workshops are now open:
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/find
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With all that I am and all that I could be, I walk this earth, yet nobody sees me.

It would just be an outlet for your work, and members will just able to comment because they enjoyed the poem.

lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

author comment

a learners workshop
but great poets like
lou seren and shirley
and hs
and moonman puglist and so on...
need not to be critiqued
they need only to be read

. so we must have a format
just read and forget
and move on

so that we all can post more than one poem .

on the other site i post 7 poems afresh
and also earn some miserly cents
but here tis only scents and comments
and u answer mine
and i reply
a sheer waste of time and effort
only ego inflation
thats is fine.

loved

I'm in no way suggesting I don't need help, I simply think it's another outlet for poetry.

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

author comment

Can't one get the same result by choosing the please use care critique option ? if not why not just add a desire no critique option. I'm no computer expert , but this may be an easier alternative.........scribbler

Clever, ive always been an idiot as you know

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

author comment

is not a bad idea, but I don't really think it would fly. I mean, if folks are going to post poems on Neopoet that are obviously doggerel and drivel, I think it is incumbent upon us to at least TRY to help them get better, even if they reject that help, for no other reason than it ultimately makes Neopoet what it purports to be, and actually is: one of the best poetry workshops on the Web.

I would prefer that, once a poem has been through all the criticism, commenting and editing, it can be moved by it's author to an archive page if so desired, where it can be, as you say, read and enjoyed without the need for deep criticism or comment.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

I have one reason for supporting the idea of a "backlist" posting. Not to avoid criticism and not to avoid workshopping, that should always be what Neopoet is all about.

When I am Mentoring or otherwise giving more than usually thorough feedback I find it useful to read a poets earlier works. However, there is usually already enough posted on the site to get an idea.

In balance I am dead against anything that can be used as a way for unlimited, uncritiqued posting, that is just un-Neopoet.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I think the "not actively editing" option should be removed ASAP. This is a workshop, what the fuck are they doing here if not actively editing? Seeking praise? The option is already being abused.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

It is my understanding that the "not actively editing"
tab is meant to have one of three meanings, one being
that the poem has been published in the present state
it's in, another one being that the poet has no clue as
to what a workshop is, or they think that we are a bunch
of dumbasses with nothing to offer and not their peers,
in any case it is a big red flag for me not to waste my time
with the poet at all, and I like knowing ahead of time ...
but it is a debatable subject for sure.

Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Ignoring the problems don't make them go away,
you're exactly right ... but isn't that the whole point!
Everyone that comes here is not going to be here
for the same reasons, it's just a fact. What is it we
should do, kick everyone out that doesn't want to
be told their poetry needs work? And would that be
entirely fair, wasn't there a time when you would not
listen, I know I've had those times, so where do we
draw the line? Like I said, I figure that poets that
choose the "not actively editing" tab will either learn
or not, it's no skin off my ass either way, if they aren't
here to learn then why the fuck should I care, or you
for that matter. We can't control every aspect of the
site and still have a happy bunch of poets ...
just one mans opinion, I'm not speaking for anyone but
me.

Yet isn't the issue what Neopoet really is, is meant to be and should be? A poetry workshop. Sure with time some people might get the message but in the mean time the purpose gets diluted. I've seen this over and over in my 4 years around Neopoet. A group of people, with all best intentions, become friends and only glad-hand each other's poetry. It grieves me and it grows unless discouraged.

I constantly seeking to find non-fascist ways to confirm the concept of workshop through encouragement, while removing loopholes for glad-handers and ego-boosters.

There is always the danger of Neopoet degenerating into a poetry social site with feedback the exception rather than the rule. We all need to be vigilant.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

"workshop" that's what it's all about. I've been to other sites, and I hate to say it, but they were "BULL SHIT" you couldn;t learn a thing. Here we have honest critic. Yes sometimes it seem a little bias. Yet it still helps, because here we have it all, the soft critic and the hard critic. I have learned so much about my writing from thr critic here.
I like Stan suggetion, but again if you do not want to be criticed then why post at all (in general), again it's a workshop. where else can you be critic and it feels like family. (HOME) I'm here to learn, as most here. that's my two cents.
Eddie C

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

I believe there is room for everybody, and the way i see it is there are poeple on this site who are not all that interested in improving and recieving comments, already, so what does it matter if they have an official stream to post on.

The majority of poeple may want to improve, but why not give a little room to those who just want have there stuff read and enjoy being part of the site.

This would mean that the workshops would not be clogged up with people who don't wish to receive a critique.

lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

author comment

Send the complacent ones and ego boosters to one place and the workshoppers to another? Sounds a bit divisory, even elitist. No, I think Neopoet IS a poetry workshop and those who don't participate in it only dilute its effectiveness.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I think you are well out of order, i don't mean that in the slightest.

I'm saying that they should access everything Neo has to offer, including the general stream, but have somewhere to post stuff as well.

If anything it is your attude to the sort of people who should contribute to the site, and who shouldn't, that is elitist.

As usual you have taken a perfectly harmless suggestion, and because you don';t agree you have tried to belittle the person, who made the suggestion.

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

author comment

Yes, I was being insulting, but about complacents and ego-boosters, not you. And the idea that it could be divisive of the site is not new to me, it has been raised as an objection to non-workshopping areas before.

I agree that there can be different levels of criticism and feedback, but maintain that Neopoet is essentially a poetry workshop and anything else detracts from its primary value.

Yes, I am suggesting that people who don't want to work on their poetry shouldn't be here. Many other sites cater to them. Workshopping is what we do.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Dear Family,

when you access Neopoet, be it, as an existing member or a person who has found it via the internet looking for a Poetry website to use...they are welcomed by a page that says:

"A Family Of Poets"

If my son plays a game of football and plays badly and lets down the team. I will give him a hug and tell him, it is ok. I may go through some the play with him and make suggestions...but always remebering he is a part of my family.

Neopoet is a family...according to the logo. If we don't want it to be a family and only a Workshop - we need to change the logo statement:

"Neopoet - the workshop for poets"

I accept harsh critique is useful, I prefer that, as I am posting in order to share my work and hope to receive critique in order to improve. Some people in the Neopoet 'Family' write as it helps them to vent their frustrations, I know of a few who write to help relieve their depression. These people may write something very personal to them but need to share it and get it off their chest...they should have a right within our 'family' to select the 'not actively editing'...as they must just want to discuss their piece and not actually want to change their words.

The point is - we are a family...so let's treat each other as members of our family.

I still support the 'back catalogue' idea I suggested at the top of this blog, where we can have some of our previous work posted on 'old' Neo to be available to our 'family' to read. I would use it to compare a members old work with their new ones before I gave critique.

Kind regards,

HS

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Workshops are now open:
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/find
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With all that I am and all that I could be, I walk this earth, yet nobody sees me.

And everything else you read approaching Neopoet affirms that it is a poetry workshop, not a poetry social site. I want to improve my craft and help others with theirs.

Anything else takes away from our ability to do that.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Jess,

your ability to help craft poets has not changed - just some are happy to 'socially chat' about their work posted on neopoet, for reasons I have already mentioned and not seek your opinion.

I am not standing up for anyone, I am just explaining we all have different reasons for using the 'Family of Poets' site.

Family Values as I view them:

Love
Respect
Honesty
Belonging
Flexibility
Forgiveness
Responsibility
Communication
...and Understanding...that people at Neopoet are part of the Family.

HS

ps. I edited this comment because I missed off 'Love' in my family values!...the most important one!

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Workshops are now open:
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/find
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With all that I am and all that I could be, I walk this earth, yet nobody sees me.

I'm not against any of those values. It's just that people being here without the desire to work on their craft does inhibit honesty and critical values. There is no doubt about it. As it is I spend way to much time trying to find a redeeming value in trite, cliched nonsense just so I can use euphemisms to say it is trite, cliched nonsense before I can offer real help. It is bullshit.

When you said-
"Some people in the Neopoet 'Family' write as it helps them to vent their frustrations, I know of a few who write to help relieve their depression. These people may write something very personal to them but need to share it and get it off their chest...they should have a right within our 'family' to select the 'not actively editing'...as they must just want to discuss their piece and not actually want to change their words."
Consider the consequences of us trying to be therapists. We are poets and trying to therapise people can be downright dangerous. I've seen it happen here, where a teenage girl came in writing about cutting herslef and someone told her to "trust in the lord". Fuck me dead! I went spare!

All we can do, and do well, is either be a workshop or a social site. Not both. And certainly not a therapy site.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Jess,

trust in the Lord.

regards,

HS

ps. I am just messing with you - I understand we are not a therapy service. I am just suggesting why some people use Neo. I think you are right about the logo...we should change it. We just have to remember there is always a real person at the end of our suggestions and we should just step back and see what level of feedback they have selected. It may make life easier if we remove the options and just leave the author to write in the 'last comments' what they are looking for in way of feedback and critique.

regards,

HS

--------------
Workshops are now open:
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/find
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With all that I am and all that I could be, I walk this earth, yet nobody sees me.

Especially "We just have to remember there is always a real person at the end of our suggestions and we should just step back and see what level of feedback they have selected"

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Parallel streams (as well as the finite workshops and specialised programs).

However it would need to be clear to people which stream to post in through naming and description. Neopoet will be defeated and swamped in mediocrity and blandness if we don't retain the notion we are here for a purpose.

"The Paddling Pool"- share your pomes and interact with like minded poets, maybe even pick up some tricks of the trade.

"In Training"- A workshop where you can expect to get encouraging critical feedback and are expected to give the same.

"The Scorpion Pit"- rigorous workshopping for poets serious about honing their craft. Don't venture in unless you are prepared to give and get possibly harsh critical feedback and work on each poem.

All 3 streams could have moderators who keep peace in The Paddling Pool, Notify where comments don't contain critical feedback in In Training and boot people out of The Scorpion Pit is they either don't give full critical feedback or don't respond to it.

ok, ok, my inner fascist is raising its ugly head again, but you get my drift.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I like your idea, however, I would add a stream:
"Leave your ego at the virtual door"...for those of us who never take umbrage at honest criticism, prefer honesty even when it hurts, and have no time for the soft whimpers of sycophants.
heehee.

As for mediocrity and blandness...these are inevitable, in a free and democratic system. Democracy breeds them, and if they are censured, it is not longer free...as much as I would personally like to see the dross and drivel gone. But then, what exactly IS "dross" and "drivel"? One man's doggerel is another man's poetry.

Also, I agree with Dan: treating all here as close family is a good idea.

I think that in the end, silence should be one's response, for those who would ignore and reject honest criticism, or take exception to the same.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

especially "Leave your ego at the virtual door", that would apply to both the workshop streams, who cares about the Paddling Pool? I make no pretense that that is just a pander to those who want to use Neopoet as a social site, without splitting the site into a strictly non-critical feedback area, suggestions can still be made, and ignored, in the paddling pool. Suggestions don't have to be accepted in the 2 workshop streams, however it would be considered protocol to explain their rejection to show how they had been considered. I usually do when I don't accept suggestions just because I consider it polite.

However your pluralist suggestion that there are no real values in poetry I vehemently deny. Some shit just is dross and drivel, or what the fuck are we giving any feedback at all for anyway?

Mediocrity and blandness can't be censored, but it can be censured and struggled against valiantly and with vigilance, except of course in the urine scented confines of the paddling pool.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

on what is considered dross and drivel, I think, although I seriously doubt that in the end our opinions on the matter would differ greatly.

There are, truly, values in poetry. Real values that are worth a great deal.
But such value is personal, idiosincratic to the reader. Finding those who see these values in poetry the way I do is part and parcel of what Neopoet is all about, to me, and showing new poets those values is important. Yet, in the end, no amount of reason will change the mind of one immersed in ego and self-importance, and those are best met with silence.

I think struggling against mediocrity beyond the confines of my own efforts is a waste of time: tear down one piece of bland nothingness and a dozen others jump in to take it's place. I see the process that we have here as mining for gold, instead: tons of waste must be dug through, shifted, searched and discarded, to find that golden gleam of worth in words, then those words have to be refined, purified, and wrought into things of beauty.
Sometimes you just have to pull up your stakes though, move on, and start searching for another vein.
But when you make a strike its a lot of fun, to me, finding someone who does not write very well, helping them become a good poet, listening to their voice grow and unfold, and helping them make more gold.
Satisfying, is the word.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

often used a similar analogy myself for the treasures that are to be found and nurtured here.

And of course if the 3 streams I've suggested are taken on one won't be called The Paddling Pool, something less derogatory no doubt, and perhaps "Shark Infested" for the most extreme stream, to fit in with the aquatic theme. Nonetheless Paddling Pool should not be called the Stream, too many associations with the old structure, which it won't really resemble.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I never wanted that, but ... perhaps we should talk
about it now. How would a separate forum distinguish
differences, like, would there be maybe no "critique"
choices in say the "shark infested forum", or would there
be maybe a warning posted by the selection tab, and
upon entering the forum ... the one thing being "that
is pretty much what we have now". Worded a little
different, but the guidelines already state ...

Critique, don't comment. Neopoet is a workshop environment. You are not going to like every comment you get. This does not mean that you can take every little comment personally. If you hear your poem needs work, it's not an attack -- it's an opening to improve yourself as a writer.

Now if you are talking about a step up from stream ... I'm with ya,
but let's call it something like " Publish Ready" , or something
along those lines ... and we could add a warning that states the
more honest approach ... and perhaps it would inspire poets as
well.

just an idea

I can't deny that there is a lot of member support for an area with mostly supportive feedback and very little crit. This way ensures that that is still part of Neopoet, rather than a seperate area.

As usual, of course, I presented the idea in a rather "in your face" way, but I feel the idea has merits.

Yes, level of critique choices could be completely done away with in In Training and Shark Infested (and good riddance). And there should be a very loud and clear warning when entering either of these workshop streams.

Maybe not Shark Infested but I disagree with Publish Ready. Some of us have no aspirations to publish- quality and growth are our goals.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Hi y'all, just got back. Nice to see you.

For me, one thing I was unhappy with in the old site was the small amount of serious critique compared to the huge amount of accolades and praise. I am not against some measure of socializing and encouragement but my reason for being here is to improve my writing. In exchange I can help others improve their own. I understand that not everyone wants the same thing from the site, and I wonder if a filter can be added to the existing stream, one where the reader can check off "Please use care, this is a sensitive subject for me", I appreciate moderate constructive criticism" and/ or "I want the raw truth...", in any combination. The default setting would allow the reader to see all the poems. I could filter out all but "raw truth" and save that setting. If at times I don't want to be a critic, but prefer to relax and read poetry, I could change the setting to include everything.

I think this makes sense because it uses the existing critique "intensity levels", and allows people who want different results to get those results. My impression is that the critique intensity levels were meant to accomplish this, but didn't quite do it.

I only just got back, I haven't yet figured out the purpose of the "rough draft-draft-polished draft-not currently editing" options. It seems to be a big source of argument, and I don't see how it is useful. Of course, if anyone does, please tell me.

Antoine

Antoine

however I have found potential gems amongst those who at first were reluctant to accept feedback.

Consider my idea for separate Streams above
http://new.neopoet.com/comment/15513#comment-15513

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Yes, I think we're trying to accomplish the same thing. However the filter would use existing critique intensity requests, and allow users to see everything at once. If we go for the separate streams, I think the critique intensity levels become redundant. Either way works for me.

Antoine

Antoine

I think there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism just so its not done in a harsh and ignorant way.I don't believe that there is any reason to split the site or create a filter.Just critique when asked and if not asked but you see something you can help with, just send a private message to the person.I am a growing poet and I appreciate all the help I can get.Please remember to comment on ours so we can learn from our mistakes and be the best writers that we can be.Don't worry about the thin skinned for their skin must grow thicker eventually.

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