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Form vs. Message

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I am aware this is a workshop site and thus we should all be striving for as near perfect form as possible. But here's the question : should perfect form/scansion/ ect. always take precedence over message in a poem? Looking forward to ya'lls thoughts on this...........stan

Do we teach correct form and lose many poets who have never been taught Poetry and write just for the either joy of writing or to send a message out.
We must then have a crystal ball to say that in the future only correct poetry will be the in thing.
The main thing is if we are aware of the old correct way of writing, then an adaption can be made as with free verse.
I oft wonder which is the correct form is it free speech/verse or the classic way of writing.
I threw my quill pen into the bin,
I use to use a pen that I had to dip in an inkwell at school.
I then used a fountain pen, still couldn't write fast it scratched lol.
Now I use a Biro or just tap the keys..
The difference between a Constable and a Picasso.
Great thoughts I think we should teach all types of poetry.
But don't tell Wesley that free verse is being taught..
Take care young woodsman, I still have an old desktop that has a hole for an ink pot but I adapted it to hold my keyboard at an angle, also it could be used as an easel so that my neck problem would not be irritated.
I had a uni interested in the design, but they probably did something for themselves
This has now been replaced by one of the old wheelie tables with a slide bit for the keyboard, progress and adaption.
When is the first teachings on Free verse going to arrive ????.
Take care,
Yours Ian..

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

I'm not even sure why you are asking this, mate.
We learn form in order to enlarge our prosodic toolbox.
When we choose a specific form we impose that form on ourselves. I mean, why call something a sonnet then write a haiku?

Who ever suggested that "perfect form/scansion/ ect.(sic etc) always take precedence over message in a poem"? No-one I know. I don't think you're going to get an argument here.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

are a lot of people who would , for instance, count every syllable of every line in a sonnet and declare the poem imperfect if the count is wrong regardless of the message. And this happens on every site I've been to. Then there's scansion. Is perfect scansion really as important as some people think? These actually Are fairly important questions especially for beginning writers.

author comment

Perfectionism is a curse more often perpetrated on ourselves than by others.

When I workshop meter, other prosodic tools or specific forms I think it's important to get it right just in order to learn how to use them. I think we have a workshop on Petrarchan Sonnets coming up soon. For the workshop, for the sake of learning the form, then and only then would form be more important than content.

Using them in our own poetry is another matter. Shakespeare's sonnets are often not strict to form. Over the years Stan, I've seen you make "imperfections" of meter a distinctive part of your style, to the point where I would only crit it if it really jarred to my ear.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

a bit surprised this thread never got many comments

author comment

but not everyone needs their prosodic toolbox enlarged.
Eph has all the words to enlarge his, much to my delight,
despite his words to the contrary, but I echo his thoughts on this,
that we should be open to everyone and embrace the doggerel,
no matter what. We NEED more chin-wagging.

Best wishes.....val.

As were Esker and Lonnie. Crikey! I hope Eph is ok.

Listen, I had a love/hate relationship with Ephraim, totally acknowledge his talent and am genuinely sorry he fucked up too many times too many. 'If only he used his power for good, not evil' [grins].

That was my personal note, Valene, don't re-open the subject of his banishment. That is permanent and non-negotiable.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I agree with everything you just said

author comment

It happens more often than you think. Whenever we encounter we 'assume crash positions', expecting a fracas, because we have had some beauties. But we both respect good poetry and good feedback.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

As is said, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder...in my opinion it applies too when one compares message v/s form... a comparable example could be that those who are interested just in nudity may go to a nudist club whereas for those whom form matters may go to a fashion show appreciating the skill of designer in revealing just enough and letting lot left to imagination of viewers...

regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

For your question,
We should have a workshop on "Poetry" where each person writes as they do, a poem and the others comment as they should.
In this workshop it can be taught to the individual if they choose to write freeform then it can be corrected as such, then if another poet writes a sonnet it can be corrected in the workshop.
I feel this will bring a lot of comments and learning from each other.
I know the stream is for such things but there is no group that comments on each poem written.
You have a workshop on unfinished Poetry at the moment it can be adapted at the end phase to do this type of workshop, what say you..
Yours as always, Ian.

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

Of course form matters. Without form poetry devolves into plain prose. And some say form doesn't matter in free verse just as some claim form is what matters most in western classic. Now the gist of it all is if faced with a situation in which message might suffer if form is maintained do we break form? And if so how far is going too far in doing so?

author comment

"I am a bit surprised this thread never got many comments". It has reopened, as these things sometimes do, but the reason it didn't at first is pretty clear. I answered your question with my first response "All absolutes are completely wrong all of the time."

Anyone who judges poetry strictly on form dismisses Shakespeare and almost everyone else.
Anyone who completely ignores form is probably not a poet.

One of our newer members writes long lines of fairly poetic prose broken into rhyming couplets. Nuh uh. 'tain't poetry.

Poetic tools are a bit like herbs, excellent slaves, terrible masters.

Would you ever serve up a dish of deep fried thyme?
Same as if the only poetic quality is rhyme.

Would you change the length of your step with every stride?
Without meter same result, it turns into a slide.

Would write an essay and call it a poem?
Compression of meaning is lesson to take home.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Surely you don't think yours are the only comments that matter. This thread was begun to get people thinking about the idea that there may be times when form is of most import just as there are times when message takes front seat. So let's hear from Anybody who has thoughts on this age old conundrum

author comment

I can see how bloody arrogant that sounded. I guess I meant people, apart from extremists, mostly agree that form and content vary in importance by need. It's a choice.

If you ignore that first paragraph the rest makes a bit of sense, doesn't it?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Why edit it? This thread is for the free statement of ideas on the subject not for trying to bend people's ideas to my own lol. And yes, it does make sense.....stan

author comment

and see? It doesn't always end in blood and mayhem. [grins]

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

We've toned it back to spittle and such lol

author comment

original question posed in this topic is important enough to renew it so newer members can voice their ideas

author comment
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