About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

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Sunku: beyond rhyme and rhythm, search for new structures in short form

Program description/goal: 

Description: Short form appeals to a reader's imagination and goes across cultural barriers. It disciplines the poet and requires the most precise choice of words in the same time leaving a good degree of pleasant ambiguity.
How to use a poetic toolbox – personification, extended metaphor, allusions, alliteration, repetition, rhyme, meter – in short form? Without a doubt it is a difficult question, however, it is well recognized that structure and patterns make a short poem esthetically pleasing.
I offer to your attention Sunku as a way to structure a short poem. In Sunku there are three stanzas, each consists of three lines with 2-3-4 syllabi per line. The level of connection between stanzas is up to a poet to decide.

Leader: IRiz and Weirdelf
Moderator(s):

Objectives: to try the new form and see how it delivers your ideas and feelings. To see how other poetic tools complement the form.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: testing Sunku a new structured short form

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
30 people
Date: 
Sunday, February 11, 2018 to Sunday, March 11, 2018
Short description: 
everybody is invited

Comments

Please count me in IRiz and Weirdelf

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

okay!!! how do we start?

IRiz

author comment

Not sure how to submit a poem into the workshop, I have decided to post a few examples showing different level of connection between stanzas.

Here are the stanzas linked in one thought, (I am trying to say that it is good sometimes to know what for the troubles I am facing)

clouds
replaced
by freezing wind

wind is
shielded by
a steeper hill

not often
do I know
why my troubles come

Here is another example where stanzas do have more independent feel, but they are all combined by the image of freezing rain

water
caresses
roofs in the fog

it drops
from the eaves
and black branches

lost toys
dressed up in ice
raise their hopes

In the last example the stanzas are connected by the feeling of loneliness and contemplation on the subject, but each has a complete thought within.

alone
it's easy
to shift the blame

afraid
to lose friends
stopped seeing people

afraid
to grow old
I stopped living

I am looking forward to your poems

IRiz

author comment

VERY IMPORTANT!

Do not post your poems on this thread, post as you normally would post a poem except near the bottom is a 'workshop' box, click on the the dropdown and choose 'Sunku: beyond rhyme and rhythm, search for new structures in short form'.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT OTHERWISE EACH PERSON'S CONTRIBUTION DOES NOT RECEIVE ADEQUATE ATTENTION AND THIS THREAD BECOMES LONG AND CONFUSING.
Please tell me if you have a problem with this.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

Good examples IRiz but i would like to bring to your attention some non conformance in some lines with respect to prescribed syllable count. Of course correct me if I am wring:-

Poem 1
clouds (to me its 1 syllable whereas should be 2 being Line 1)
replaced (is 2 syllables whereas should be 3 being line 2)
why my troubles come (if troubles is 2 syllables then this becomes a 5 syllable line instead of 4)

Poem 2
raise their hopes (is 3 syllables instead of 4 being line3)

Poem3
stopped seeing people (is 5 syllable instead of 4 being line 3)

of course the apparent non conformance in the linescan be fixed using alternates

i will try my hand at posting a Sunku

regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

not sure if i agree with your count
but you right i am not perfect in my examples
good luck my friend spread your wings

IRiz

author comment

I have already said "correct me if I am wrong" especially because phonetics is a tricky thing.

I have already spread my wings by posting a couple of tries at this form as an "early bird" is expected to do ...hahaha...

thanks to you and Wierdelf, good to see this work shop get going

raj (sublime_ocean)

syllables are the closest we can get to their concept of 'on'.
We don't have to be strict about syllable count, we are exploring how to say the most, using all the poetic toolbox, with the least possible words.
My personal view of this workshop is how to say what is inbetween the lines.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

Sunku
a new form
is challenging

Haiku
prepared me
as a grounding

Poems
like models
getting slimmer?

Please share your opinion and guide me

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

i like this poem less then the second one,
it only appeals to my mind but poems should go deeper

IRiz

author comment

Thanks for your honest feed back on this one. It was in fact so to say a beginner's attempt to say the least. However your valid point about a Sunku having depth is well taken. By that should i presume that you would like such poems to evoke thinking by the reader and make their own perception?

raj (sublime_ocean)

Yes

IRiz

author comment

Do not post your poems on this thread, post as you normally would post a poem except near the bottom is a 'workshop' box, click on the the dropdown and choose 'Sunku: beyond rhyme and rhythm, search for new structures in short form'.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT OTHERWISE EACH PERSON'S CONTRIBUTION DOES NOT RECEIVE ADEQUATE ATTENTION AND THIS THREAD BECOMES LONG AND CONFUSING.
Please tell me if you have a problem with this.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

they are listening Jess! IMPORTANT! DON"T POST YOUR WORK HERE!

The addition of a premium-membership can:
Help you navigate the site easier, change and create the look of your profile-page!
Just see what you can do! Add a bit of flavor to your profile and kick it up a notch!

You will find evidence that I was posting my work in main stream and not here after receiving guideline from Jess

raj (sublime_ocean)

Shadow
may follow
or precede me

Is it
friend or foe
i do not know

May be
it's someone
to trust utmost

inviting comments from workshop organizers to know a) if I am on the right track or b) areas for improvement/needful corrections

raj (sublime_ocean)

i like the unanswered feel of the poem

IRiz

author comment

Thanks IRiz for your quick response. By "unanswered feel" do you mean "May be" are thekey words which give it that feel?

raj (sublime_ocean)

is a title expected for such poems in Sunku Format?

Is it to be treated as structured Eastern? If so why, especially when those who have conceived this form are not eastern?

How to get this form accepted / accredited across the poetic forum/s?

I hope I am not asking too many questions?

raj (sublime_ocean)

it is not eastern, it is a form of free style
we do not have precise definition of a free style yet
so it qualifies.
We do not know yet about names, i feel if your poem needs a name you should give it, go with your feeling.
Thank you for you valid questions, critiques and poetry.

IRiz

author comment

Noted that it is to be categorized as a form of free form. Let's see what this workshop leads to crystallizing such definitions further when more join the work shop / pond. At the moment I seem to be the only tadpole in the FrogPond :)

Cheers!

raj (sublime_ocean)

Please go through other workshops listed here. I think you need to list / register names of Participants who would like to join this workshop.

raj (sublime_ocean)

you are in

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

Count me in if you will.

Thank you, looking forward to reading your poems.

IRiz

author comment

Scattered
are the thoughts
like spilled pop corn

Lookalikes
hard to pick
one over other

My muse
feasts on them
to feed the voids

raj (sublime_ocean)

Interesting images.
Comparison of words to popcorn is great.
But the second stanza is repeating the same vibe.
It feels like your poem is over right there.
It is a subjective feeling, please do not take it as a critique.

IRiz

author comment

Thanks for the read IRiz. Having joined the workshop and even otherwise I have an open mind to to the comments even if negative. From your comment about second stanza do you suggest that it should be more like a connecting link between stanzas 1 and 3 rather than a continuation of stanza 1? Based on your revert I will do further home work and submit revised version for your further evaluation.

Do you think there is too much of abstract?

Thanks again and regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Do not do anything yet . Sleep on it.

IRiz

author comment

I have taken the liberty to invite "Barbara Writes" to join this work shop. With her experience in shorter form of poetry I believe she would be able to add value to this work shop even as a Moderator. I have sent her the invite via PM

raj (sublime_ocean)

It is a good idea to invite people, I agree.

IRiz

author comment

We need a buzz here to feel like a workshop fior more ideas to be on the anvil to achieve its objective is my opinion...raj

raj (sublime_ocean)

even with this being the most interesting workshop in a while we are promoting it on all social media.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

Good to know this ...

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

I was referred here. Great work shop sign me up.

*The Collaboration Poetry Workshop
Eternal Renga
Amqerican Version of Japanese Poetry
All Neopoet members are welcome to join in the round robin fun.
Collaboration Poetry Workshop

It’s hard
In my life
Can’t stand the pain.

2 3 4 stanza. Did I get it. I read the syllabus but I miss important details most times due to my eyes and illness. Look to be a fun workshop. SunKu another jewel for my poetry portfolio. I seen it in my haiku Senyru tanka and Renga research for my collaboration poetry workshop.

*The Collaboration Poetry Workshop
Eternal Renga
Amqerican Version of Japanese Poetry
All Neopoet members are welcome to join in the round robin fun.
Collaboration Poetry Workshop

Hi Barbara, welcome to the discussion.
Yes you have got it right. It is three of the stanzas that makes the finished poem.
The first short line is an attention grabber.
The connection between the stanzas doesn't have to be direct. Here is one of my examples

alone
it's easy
to shift the blame

afraid
to lose friends
stopped seeing people

afraid
to grow old
I stopped living

IRiz

author comment

I got it

Screaming
Lost my voice
I cannot talk

*The Collaboration Poetry Workshop
Eternal Renga
Amqerican Version of Japanese Poetry
All Neopoet members are welcome to join in the round robin fun.
Collaboration Poetry Workshop

As you are surely aware, you need to post your poems not here but independently after selecting appropriate workshop from the drop down menu.

Moreover, for Sunku, it is necessary to have three stanzas, each of 3 lines preferablyfollowing 2-3-4 syllabi for each stanza.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

Do not post your poems on this thread, post as you normally would post a poem except near the bottom is a 'workshop' box, click on the the dropdown and choose 'Sunku: beyond rhyme and rhythm, search for new structures in short form'.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT OTHERWISE EACH PERSON'S CONTRIBUTION DOES NOT RECEIVE ADEQUATE ATTENTION AND THIS THREAD BECOMES LONG AND CONFUSING.
Please tell me if you have a problem with this.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

I have been doing this for ten years and forgot to explain the importance of posting poems linked to the workshop instead of posting them in the workshop.

Seen some great work so far and think this might be the best workshop in a while.
Write to write inbetween what you write.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

beyond
equilibrium
concentration

poor at
counting
syllables

will pick
up soonly
course surely

Lovedly, let me add you to the participants' list.
That way you could resubmit your poem to our main workshop collection of sunku.
Thank you for joining and welcome to the Sunku world.

IRiz

author comment

In this shop are we posting only series ? also does this form allow titles?

Hello thank you for asking. Three stanza compose a complete sunku. But they could have somewhat independent meaning. Title or not is up to you

IRiz

author comment

To summarize

1. Participants to post their Sunku not in this workshop stream but independently as they would nrmally do to submit their poems
2. Participants to select the workshop from the drop down menu in "Workshop" which is below "contest" before submission
3. The poems may or may not have a title. I suggest one should mention [Sunku Workshop] in the title field
4. Three stanza compose a complete sunku.
5. To quote Weirdelf "My personal view of this workshop is how to say what is in between the lines"

I have already uploaded my poem based on the above.

raj (sublime_ocean)

Yes, how to make a space between lines talk.

IRiz

author comment

ta Raj

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

I'll see if I can come up with something this evening

All poems linked to this workshop can be viewed through the link at top right of this page under the title--
Most recent poems
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/22336

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

sorry Jess I couldnt find the link you mentioned..would be nice to see all poems submitted to this work shop in one place....I wasn't aware of this...

regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/22336
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop (look to the top right of this page)
or on the Neopoet homepage
Plunge Pool: Sunku: beyond rhyme and rhythm, search for new structures in short form
(submissions)
(click on submissions)

There are 3 tested ways to find all works submitted to this workshop.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

Found it Jess....thanks...

regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

I guess this could be called unstated or implied messaging. "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood". Yellow wood say a whole lot more than just those two words. It says the season is autumn and also says the woods are likely poplar, aspen and sweet gum with no evergreens.It also implies that it's harvest time and the holiday season.
Why did I bring this up? I think in any compressed form of poetry trying to condense as many images/emotions/ ect. is very important because there are so few words to work with........just my two cents

Yes I see what you mean

IRiz

author comment

that be wot be ment
[chuckles] I can't resist taking the piss out of you as a pastoralist writer.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

a pastoral writer? i don't even own a pasture lol

It is heartwarming to realize that by being part of this on going Workshop we are contributing in some way to aid IRiz in fine tuning the parameters of the innovative form of "Sunku" which is her brainchild, which over a period of time would potentially become a milestone in the annals of Poetry. Let's continue to contribute our thoughts and poems as best as we can... to be part of this endeavor.

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

I'm still confused as how to get in on the fun here....how do I sign up?

I am short of time here but will return to home next week, but just add me when you have time.
Here's a passing thought:-

I cry
Not for you
Just the memory

Droplets
Flowing free
I turn mirrors

Hidden
Inside of me
A truth of love

Have a lovely week, Yours Ian. x

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

so good! not for you...just the memory. yes, I know what that means.

Dear captain. I am so glad to hear from you.
Thank you for your reply.

IRiz

author comment

Deep beautiful write
When I add you, could you please repost the poem as a part of the workshop

IRiz

author comment

Captain and Sparrow,
I have added you to the participants.
Now, when you submit a poem you will have an option to select Sunku in the drop down menu called Workshop.
You can post more than once in 24h if it is a workshop. So participation here will not prevent you from publishing your regular poems.

IRiz

author comment

Is rhyme forbidden in this form?

No no no
Alliteration, rhyme anything your heart desires, please use. The only thing to remember is that the content, the mystery, the call to readers' imagination comes first.

IRiz

author comment

Doing a shop on a new form called "morphing" and one of the best things about it was making the person who invented it really think about how the form was defined and what was allowed and not allowed. So the more questions you get the better I think......As an example you say that syllable count doesn't Have to always strictly adhere to guidelines. But what is the maximum number of syllables allowed for each line?

The final goal is to create a poem in
an esthetically pleasing short form.
If you feel the images and thoughts are overwhelming and too dense you add more words.
If you feel you are done but the line is one syllabus short just keep it short. The shorter the better, the more intense your poem looks.
Compare two lines
1. Stop it.

2. Will you please consider stopping for me.

Which one will lead to the response faster?

We have to find a size of the line which fits your needs the best. If in contamplating mood I would go for the longer lines.

IRiz

author comment

When developing a new type poetry which has a strong basis on form there Must be limitations . You are eventually going to have to bite the bullet and set these limitations. And there's nothing wrong with that. Sonnets have limitation, Haiku have limitations. It's not a Bad thing.......stan

I agree

IRiz

author comment

Ultimately the challenge would be to define what would constitute conformance to be a Sunku. Which body / forum would finally accept / accredit and declare "Sunku" as an official form of poetry? Is there such an authority? Just curious...

Regards..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Deleted

raj (sublime_ocean)

before the workshop started but this is all part of a process to get the form accredited at The journal Frogpond, an official serial publication of the Haiku Society of America.
http://www.hsa-haiku.org/frogpond/aboutfrogpond.html

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

I wonder what the relevance is between Sunku and Haiku when both have nothing in common.

raj (sublime_ocean)

I like that SunKu is short, three lines and structured similar to haiku
The beauty is in its uncommon features. It’s like free style to me. I will change it up
One I get the structure mastered.
SunKu is a form I can add to my Collaboration workshop
Easily.

The main structure of SunKu is 2-3-4 not always necessary if it feels restricted
The first line is a sets the tone of theme.
After that have at it.
This is how I understand it. I tend to get things twisted so straighten me out with what I’m missing

*The Collaboration Poetry Workshop
Eternal Renga
Amqerican Version of Japanese Poetry
All Neopoet members are welcome to join in the round robin fun.
Collaboration Poetry Workshop

The common part is the way you treat content.
Without explaining you thought fully you hope that the readers will engage their own mind to recognize and complete your vibe.

IRiz

author comment

Have the same type limitation in being very brief. In this form the limit in number of stanzas sets it apart from free verse as does the yet to be set limitation in line length. Is this correct Riz?

on my first attempt.

cheers,
Jess
Managing Directors with Richard (themoonman).
Any queries or problems contact any member of the AC, any Advocate or Managing Directors.

I want to write a poem that would leave a sound in the air after it ends, that is dense enough to explode if touched and has enough energy to ignite minds long after I die.
What form I chose depends on the content.
Sunku is well defined style that disciplines mind of a writer and helps to be short, to throw away unnecessary words and only keep those that are close to the author's heart.
It is a free form, meaning there is no constraints, if you want to deviate from it go be free. But ! You have to have a good reason.
If you want it to sound more hesitant make longer lines. If your thought is too complex to deliver in three stanzas make it longer. But make sure that there is something burning unsaid left that constitute a good enough reason to wonder the unstructured territory.

Ufff! This is an important message, please read!
It is a statement of my dream, it doesn't mean I have reached it.

IRiz

author comment

is free to lengthen either lines or number of stanzas then this is little different than free verse. I'm playing devil's advocate but if you are trying to create a truly different form you are going to have to have more restrictions in my opinion.

The rule is solid the deviations are allowed but whatever comes out will not be Sunku. It will be an approximation.

IRiz

author comment

How are we to handle deviations here in the workshop? Should those who comment on a deviation suggest exact changes or just point out the deviations and let the author worry about editing to fit the rules? Or just let the poem stand but as a non-Sunku? I don't mean to be a pain in the but . However this shop will be referred back to over time if this new form is accepted as such and I think it better to have questions answered here and now rather than later.
" If one wishes to learn something the best thing to do is teach it" paraphrase of another's quote

The common goal is to help each other to write and to write better.
Pointing out slight deviations that author probably sees already is a waste of time.
Pointing out a skillful use of poetic tool box, suggesting ideas or writing poetic replies should be a main priority the way I see it.

IRiz

author comment

I agree. Just have to be careful when developing a new form

I agree.
Thank you for your stimulating questions, they help to put the whole idea together

IRiz

author comment

Is this any close to what is supposed to be submitted? If yes... please let me in

let the meds.
heal
your pain

rain
to wipe out
the dust

I'll only
trust
the world
of words.

Just trying to come back to a world that I've always loved.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Welcome Rula to this WS

I knew you possess the jewels to to string up a Sunku. Just go through the generalized parameters of a Sunku which are:-

Three stanzas
Syllable sequence of 2-3-4 per stanza
Letting the reader think and read between lines

I am sure you can re calibrate your poem for sure

So happy to have you participating in this WS with your heart and soul as always

hugs...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Welcome Rula to this WS

I knew you possess the jewels to to string up a Sunku. Just go through the generalized parameters of a Sunku which are:-

Three stanzas
Syllable sequence of 2-3-4 per stanza
Letting the reader think and read between lines

I am sure you can re calibrate your poem for sure

So happy to have you participating in this WS with your heart and soul as always

hugs...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Welcome, my friend.
I am always happy to accept new people, ideas, poems. Do post in the main stream of the workshop! I need five minutes to add your name in the list.

IRiz

author comment

i'll think of another example

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

May be it's time for a mid term review by the Workshop Leaders and participants on the following:-

a) Can poetic themes/thoughts expressed in this innovative short form of poetry "Sunku"- my personal opinion is Yes
b) After reviewing a pretty good number of poem submission adhering to the Form, are the WS Leaders satisfied with the objective or do they feel there is more room for improvement (if so in which areas?)
c) Are modifications to the original form features envisaged or not necessary
d) Are there any time lines before taking all steps to get this form approved / accredited from whatever body is empowered to do it?
e) In short how near or far are we with respect to the accomplished goal/s of this WS

I believe our friend IRiz is familiar with the process and documentary requirements to submit an application to the concerned Accreditation Body to accredit Sunku. I am sure she would welcome any help / assistance . inputs from learned participants like Ian in this endeavor.

I hope I am not over bearing in calling for the mid term review. Intention is purely for success of the endeavor.

raj (sublime_ocean)

no, not yet, need more time, more poems, more thinking

IRiz

author comment

Okie Dokies

raj (sublime_ocean)

Okie Dokies

raj (sublime_ocean)

Okie Dokie.

May be I am too enthusiastic for you to get Sunku Accredited.

raj (sublime_ocean)

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