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"Sonnets"...Let's Know More

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description:

Leader: Rula Y. H.
Moderator(s): Sir Wesley Snow

Objectives:To know more about two types of sonnets; The Italian (Petrarchan) sonnet and the English (Elizabethan) sonnet

_ To introduce the history of the two types of the sonnets.

_The participants are supposed to write two sonnets;
1- an Italian sonnet
2-an Elizabethan sonnet

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: I hope the participants will be able to enhance their previous knowledge about sonnets by learning more about mainly two specific types of sonnets; their forms, meter and of course the rhyme schemes.

The participants should not only be able to write two well written sonnets taking into consideeration the appropriate meter and rhyme scheme but also, to formulate the poem according the question and answer format through the volta.(Enough time will be given to discuss every aspect and practice each form)

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
10 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Thursday, January 22, 2015
Short description: 
Learn almost everything about mainly two types of sonnets "The Petrarchan Sonnet" and "The Elizabethan Sonnet"

Comments

They say it's good to face one's fears and I guess sonnets are scary for me because I've yet to write a decent one. So with patience I'll see what I can do..........stan

Though it scares me to death! I ditto Stan - but I'm willing to have a go!

Mand xxxx

Stan and Mand to the scary world.... hahaha

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

I know nothing about sonnet. Will try my best to keep up if you will be patient with me.

Alid

Khalid.
It's our pleasure brother.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

Can I make a request? I don't have much confidence in writing a Petrarchan poem. Can I start with shakesperean first before I follow up with Wes's challenge? I can't see how I can answer his challenge if I can't even write the shakepearan style with a more flexible format.

Alid

Is this the workshop that Wes mentioned to me?

Scott

Suit up. We're almost ready to go. We will be handling hazardous material.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Geared up and ready to go, Sir. Intrigued about writing in strict form (especially when it's double the trouble).. It's been awhile.

Scott

I'm in too

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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dear Scott... It must be it.
So you are in?

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author comment

Barbara and Scott

We shall start shortly.

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author comment

I hope this will be the first of a series of workshops in this pool that are considerably more comprehensive than those in the Olympic Pool.
Welcome all.
Let's all support Rula in her first workshop.

Wait until you read her Elizabethan sonnet for the shop.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
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I hope always to be up to your and others ' expectations.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

congrats on being able to lead your first workshop, sis.

Alid

brother.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

I am going to regress to the William 's age and try if I may to write a sonnet soon I say,
Yours Ian

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

Please don't try to take all this in at one read just scan it first. then select the relevant part you need for the workshop or you will drown in there someplace,
Yours Ian

• SONNET.

English (or Shakespearean) sonnets are lyric poems that are 14 lines long falling into three coordinate quatrains and a concluding couplet.

Italian (or Petrarchan) sonnets are divided into two quatrains and a six-line sextet.
Critics of the sonnet have recognized varying classifications, but to all essential purposes two types only need be discussed.

You will understand that each of these two, in turn, has undergone various modifications by experimenters.

The two characteristic sonnet types are the Italian (Petrarchan) and the English (Shakespearean).

The first, the Italian form, is distinguished by its bipartite division into the octave and the sestet: the octave consisting of a first division of eight lines rhyming abbaabba and the sestet, or second division, consisting of six lines rhyming
cdecde, cdccdc, or cdedce.

On this twofold division of the Italian sonnet Charles Gayley notes:-
“The octave bears the burden; a doubt, a problem, a reflection, a query, an historical statement, a cry of indignation or desire, a Vision of the ideal.

The sestet eases the load, resolves the problem or doubt, answers the query, solaces the yearning, realizes the vision.”

Again it might be said that the octave presents the narrative, states the proposition or raises a question;
The sestet drives home the narrative by making an abstract comment, applies the proposition, or solves the problem.
So much for the strict interpretation of the Italian form; as a matter of fact English poets have varied these items greatly.

The octave and sestet division is not always kept; the rhyme-scheme is often varied, but within limits–no Italian sonnet properly allowing more than five rhymes. Iambic pentameter is essentially the meter, but here again certain poets have experimented with hexameter and other meters.

The English (Shakespearean) sonnet, on the other hand, is so different from the Italian (though it grew from that form) as to permit of a separate classification.
Instead of the octave and sestet divisions, this sonnet characteristically embodies four divisions: three quatrains (each with a rhyme-scheme of its own) and a rhymed couplet.
Thus the typical rhyme-scheme for the English sonnet is
abab cdcd efef gg.
The couplet at the end is usually a commentary on the foregoing, an epigrammatic close.

The Spenserian sonnet combines the Italian and the Shakespearean forms, using three quatrains and a couplet but employing linking rhymes between the quatrains, thus:-
abab bcbc cdcd ee.
Certain qualities common to the sonnet as a form should be noted.
Its definite restrictions make it a challenge to the artistry of the poet and call for all the technical skill at the poet’s command.
The more or less set rhyme patterns occurring regularly within the short space of fourteen lines afford a pleasant effect on the ear of the reader, and can Create truly musical effects.
The rigidity of the form precludes a too great economy or too great prodigality of words.
Emphasis is placed on exactness and perfection of expression.
The sonnet as a form developed in Italy probably in the thirteenth century.

Please don't try to take all this in at one read just scan it first then select the relevant part you need for the workshop..

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

I shall be waiting for any questions about the details I have just submitted.
Your efforts are always appreciated.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

Ok. Shark poets... I am for one who doesn't like history, but sometimes it is inevitable. I wish everyone would read this. I expect at least one question. Doing so, means s/he has not only read but understood what s/he read.

 

 

The sonnet mainly refers to a structured poetic form that is constructed of fourteen lines in a strict iambic pentameter. It was the form of choice for lyric poets, particularly those seeking to engage with traditional themes of love and romance.

_Sonnets were also written during the height of classical English verse, by Dryden and Pope, among others, and written again during the heyday of English Romanticism, when Wordsworth, Shelley, and particularly John Keats created wonderful sonnets.

Today, the sonnet remains the most influential and important verse form in the history of English poetry.

_The first sonnet was created by Giacomo da Lentini, head of the Sicilian School under Emperor Frederick II, then was rediscovered by Guittone d'Arezzo, who brought it to Tuscany where he adapted it to his language when he founded the Neo-Sicilian School (1235–1294). In this Workshop, we are going to practice mainly two variations of the sonnet:

1,The Italian sonnet, or as later called The Petrarchan Sonnet after "Petrarch" who was an Italian scholar and poet in Renaissance Italy . His sonnet comprises an octave which is eight lines (of two quatrains) and has a strict rhyme of a-b-b-a / a-b-b-a. This part of the Italian or Petrarchan sonnet usually signals a problem. The second part is a sestet which is six lines with a more flexible rhyme scheme of c-d-e-c-d-e OR c-d-d-c-d-c OR c-d-c-d-c-d and signals the resolution of the problem or a question or a proposition.

_The other variation of the sonnet form is called The English or Elizabethan sonnet that is known later also as Shakespearian sonnet because Shakespeare became the most famous practitioner of this form of sonnet.

The Elizabethan sonnet comprises three quatrains that rhyme a-b-a-b / c-d-c-d / e-f-e-f and a couplet that rhymes gg.

_In both sonnet forms, line 9 is usually a turning point that is called the Volta and it usually a turning point in the sonnet's mode and presents a solution.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

Seems to be a challenging ws. Going to do my best to get this

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for explanation what a sonnet is and its various forms, italian / shakespearean (english)...may during your WS someone may come up with yet another version may be Rulaian version :) Humor apart please confirm if the sonnets need to be only of a romantic theme or otherwise...

Regards...

raj (sublime_ocean)

The Spenserian and Urdu are the two most common after our versions, but in most cases they are generally slight variations of the Italian. The Elizabethan is also a variation on the Italian and used to be known as "the poor man's sonnet" as it is a little easier to produce.
If you can write a Petrarchan (Italian) sonnet it is an easy step to the others.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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You can say that earlier sonneteers wrote mainly about romantic themes, namely love, dealing with both good and/or bad consequences of falling in love. They talked freely about both: Man's physical need and as sentiments.
However, nowadays, you can read sonnets about almost every theme. So, you are never restricted to the theme.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

Thank you Rula for the clarification.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I'm seeing stars. it's iambic pentameter? gotta check what that means again. I think its one of the forms I've tried and failed. Can't remember.

Alid

and also read conflicting reports as to how many syllables per line are required and also that the number can vary according to whether "feminine" feet are used (I have no idea how to keep from tickling if a line in written on a feminine foot....Couldn't help that lol) can you clear this up?

From the beginning. Any poetic line is a collection of "feet". For example, a single iambic foot is comprised of two syllables. The first is unaccented, the second is accented.

So to answer Stan's question... no. A feminine word or foot must end on an unaccented syllable which would be trochee (an accented syllable followed by an unaccented... the opposite of iamb). Therefore an iambic line will end masculine (an accent on the last syllable). For example I borrow from Keats.

"When I / have fears / that I / may cease / to be"

I have scanned this line. Note that there are five poetic feet in the line which makes it pentameter.

Those words in bold print are accented syllables and the others are unaccented. Note the end of the line which ends in an accented syllable. This is masuline.

I hope everyone has questions concerning this.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
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we are not going to be allowed to use feminine lines in this WS Wes - but I think it is misleading to Stan to say they are not permitted per se in a sonnet

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

When I first learnt to write a sonnet, sir Wesley insisted on being strict to the original sonnets. He  said that when we attempt works by composers such as Bach or Beethoven it is customary to attempt to play it as it was originally written. We try to create a performance that mimics as much as we can how the piece was played in the composer's time. The same then is true of poetic forms. We want to write an Italian sonnet as it was written in Petrarch's or Giacomo's time.

 

As it is being always said, know the rules then break them.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

do you call him SIR Wesley? - lol - he's not even English
I understand the wish to faithfully follow the rules of the sonnet - but we should not mislead such as Stan and others, who are new to it, in the ways sonnets can be written - it becomes confusing.

I feel a better answer to Stan's question would have been that
"a feminine line is acceptable, especially in an Elisabethan sonnet. It is a line that has an extra half foot, that being an unaccented one
ie : ta dum ta dum ta dum ta dum ta dum ta
But, we will not be using these in this workshop"

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

and shall always do UNLESS he doesn't like it

And thanks for explaining the feminine line, though I thought it would be confusing and I found it unhealthy to stuff it all together at the same time.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

I'm descended from British aristocracy. I am Snowdon, the Earl of Franklin. We lost our seat in Parliament multiple generations ago. I am fifth generation American.

A line with an extra foot (either in the front or the rear of the line) is called catalectic.
The poet can do anything they want, but in this workshop we are going to attempt, as Rula said, to write our sonnets in an original form.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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You deserve the title whatever your origin is. You deserve it for who you are, no matter who your ancestors are sir!

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

Am I supposed to be impressed?
Sorry - I'm Aussie - don't think much of either peerage or knighthoods.
Love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I've always thought it was pretty funny. Put me in Parliament and the British Empire would collapse.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
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I'm looking for the 'like' button
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

perhaps on Australian Day recently
I assumed they had Knighted him
along with the Duke UK
I have been sidelined again
s a d l y !

Too tough for me to understand and/or follow these strict norms for a sonnet.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

At the mean time, I want you to concentrate on the meter, and the rhyme scheme.
As a start write me a line or two in Iambic pentameter and submit it here to see if you got it right.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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I would certainly like to give it a go. If i am able to do it i would post it in stream and not here because for valid reasons I have chosen to not be a part of Workshops actively

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I shall follow you wherever you go :)

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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Go ahead. Whatever you post as a sonnet will likely be better than what I post lol

No. No comparison between you and me (an amateur). You are way too good.

Regards.

raj (sublime_ocean)

I share the difficulties that Raj is facing but I'll try to follow the advice you've given him. Sonnet is just another one of the forms I have yet to master since I'm not good with rhyming and iambic pentameter. Hopefully I can be better. Truth is, I'm scared of this form so I stay away from it but that is hypocrisy since I did say I want to learn so here I am, putting myself in your capable hands. Lead on, I'll try to follow.

Alid

the faith in you dear brother. Give it a try. You are for it. I know.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

let me support sir Wesley's clarification, with the following videos
Hope they'd help a bit

Headphones on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0aAWuUX5jU

and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArrR66OSa0Q

Enjoy

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

Me being one you figuref out in the meter ws lol. This is the most challenging of any poetry form. I still take it on bc I love challenges whether I do good or not bc one day it will switch on as if I was born with the gift lol.

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so I think I shall leave you to enjoy the videos and sir Wesley's explanation and we shall meet tomorrow with more details about the first version. (The Petrarchan Sonnet)
Have a good day/night all

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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Now as to the number of feet allowed. I've read people who state it's 4 and others say it's 5

Greek: penta or five.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
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Assuming that everything is clear since there are no questions, let's do something like

an identity card for the Italian sonnet:_

Meter: Iambic Pentemeter

Rhyme scheme:

for The Octave (that is the first two stanzas which consist of 8 lines- 4 lines in each stanza) is typically it is a b b a / a b b a.

The Sestet (the last six lines) c d e / c d e OR c d c / d c d There are also other rhyme schemes but let's stick to one of the listed above.

Theme: any theme.

The octave (first 8 lines) usually introduces/reflects/ states the speaker's problem or desire While the sestet (the last six lines) reflect/ state the solution or gives easily as a comment on the Octave, which is therefore is known as the VOLTA or the turning point in the sonnet.

 

 

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

I'm soo sorry for not joining in. The weekend has been busy with grandchildren - and I'll be having them this afternoon as well. Unfortunately I'm going to have to drop out of the workshop because we have become busy with secular work - when it gets like this we work from early in the morning to late evening. ( we have to work twice as hard because the last few weeks have been fairly slack and we need to get some cash in ).

I'm so sorry for letting you down and please forgive me if I don't manage to comment of everyone's work. ( I will be able to log in because I work with my computer next to me - so I may be able to make some comments and I will try to keep an eye on what's going on ).

Soo sorry - in the meantime I hope you all have fun and enjoy the workshop.

Love to all

Mand xxxx

dear Mand, but this I guess how life goes sometimes.
I still have faith that you might come and join whenever time allows.
Take care. I know there are always priorities in life.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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author comment

I have just posted my exemplary Petrarchan sonnet.
I expect some questions and comments before everyone is engaged in writing her/ his own first draft.
As a start, sir Wesley and I don't expect a polished draft, but a rather rough one. Take your time and please let me know what difficulties you're encountering, if any.

PS. Absense is not allowed in shark pools.
Comments and questions are welcome.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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I'll try my best but there are times when all I can do is read. not absent, just trying to recover.

Alid

Take your time. Health FIRST. It is only that I expect more questions on whatever is posted. Unless all is clear.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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This all seems like a lot to remember and my memory isn't that good. I was at the original Woodstock, so I have an excuse! I will manage to get through this if I have to look it up every-time that I go to write! Here I go! ~ Gee

Our Chatroom is open 24/7 Feel free to use it for
keeping in touch We have poets around the world and it is fun
to have real-time conversations with those that are up
all night or on the other side of the world.
.

Please feel free to ask as many questions as you might have.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

Any syllable count like that in tanka?
Still abit unclear about pentameter. I get that a feet is of this form ; stresses/unstressed word,
how many feet are there in iambic pentameter?
Sorry if my questions are holding back the others who know what its all about. I'm lost..

Alid

as in the tanka. YET it is in fact the other way round. Iambic means you should start (unstressed/ STRESSED). Each pair of these make a feet. Five feet make a pentameter line.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
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Well if this hadn't happened:-

Kathryn Howard
Born: c. 1521

Married to King Henry VIII: 28 July 1540
Oatlands Palace

Executed: 13 February 1542
The Tower of London

Buried: 13 February 1542
Chapel of St. Peter ad Vincula at the Tower of London.

I might have been a regular visitor to Buck House,
But I prefer the Jack Sparrow lad that ended up in Australia all those years ago,
By my own hand this day,
Yours, H.M Ian T Howard
I shall try to write a sonnet true or two.
The time is fastly moving away
I am not sure if I shall finish these tasks today
Or in the allotted time you say,
Have started already on number one
Damn Penty something gives me a bad tum.
If I cannot finish on time just remember I started
and wrote the first line
Take care out there hope to learn something here, Yours, Ian, My Dear..

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

dear Ian. No worries, you have your time. I am so patient especially when it comes to writing a good sonnet. :)
Take care.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

interesting
is time also fasting?

letter words or inconsequential single syllable words such as" the"can be left out of the syllable and/or foot count?

as a syllable. Now, when it comes to verbs and noun, these generally take a stress because they are important words in the sentence. However when these verbs are in a contraction form such as " have" as (I've won), "are" as in ("You're great"), "am" ("I'm leaving ) and so forth, they are usually unstressed. Other words of a single syllable that are usually stressed are the demonstrative pronouns (this, that, these, those).

Other words that are not stressed are the Articles (the, a) and the propositions (in, on, at ....etc.) and also some pronouns as (I, you...etc.) UNLESS the context dictates that these  pronouns should take a stress.

 

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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from what is being said i believe each line has to be of a certain length based on syllable count. Is that so? If yes how many syllables make a line? It may be a very elementary question but I am still at the elementary level when it comes to sonnets and such other forms demanding strict conformance..

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

there should be 10 syllables. ?

(unstressed/ STRESSED) (unstressed/STRESSED) (unstressed/STRESSED) (unstressed/STRESSED) (unstressed/STRESSED)

Each two syllables makes a feet.

Every five feet make a line, and from here comes the name Penta(which means five)

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something I was told long ago here and which I have been passing on to others here. Yet I'd not connected the advice to determining stressed and unstressed syllables in writing sonnets. READ ONE'S POEMS OUT LOUD!. How the heck did I forget to do this? lol. Getting late here so tomorrow I'll see how much this smooths thing out........stan

When sir Wesley asked me to write my first sonnet, that was about a year and a half ago, I checked the dictionary for EVERY SINGLE word. I still do, but occasionally.

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‘The structure of a typical Italian sonnet of the time included two parts that together formed a compact form of "argument". First, the octave (two quatrains), forms the "proposition", which describes a "problem", or "question", followed by a sestet (two tercets), which proposes a "resolution". Typically, the ninth line initiates what is called the "turn", or "volta", which signals the move from proposition to resolution.’

Forgive me for using old Wikipedia above to state my case, but it was so elegantly done I thought I should bow to a superior literary example.

The first half of the poem poses a problem, whether romantic, societal or philosophical. A sonnet can be a protest work or historical. It can be of any subject, but it must begin with a perspective very specific and end with a resolution of this perspective. Otherwise, we call the poem something else.

As to “original thought”.
In a University’s PHD program a graduate is required to write a thesis proposing a solution to a problem that has never been thought of before. A new idea or don’t graduate.
It was literary tradition in the time following Petrarch to pepper the sonnet in particular with “original” ideas.
To pose a societal or intellectual problem with mankind and then… offer a new solution. Try it. It isn’t easy. Posing a problem is simple, but to turn a phrase and describe a solution unthought of is profound.

That will be exercise three.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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That was very informative.
I like the idea of the "original thought". That really boggles
WOW!
Sir! Thank you for the lesson
Now, everyone in this shark pool must be really ready to ex. three. Write up a good volta and add it to your sonnet. We are not in a hurry. Still, didn't hear from some sharks. Ian , Geezer and Barbara... Are you still here?

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I had started on the Sonnet piece, but other work has taken priority, I will see if I can complete something at the weekend,
Take care,
Yours as always Ian.T

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

We aren't in a hurry. Take your time.
Take care!

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Now Wes is wanting us to write as if we're going for our PHD lol

its the writing style that's giving me prob, the rhyming and the iambic pentameter. Now that's my weak point but don't get me wrong. I'm not backing out. Gonna face this one as best as I could.

Alid

but it's interesting to consider. It was one of the original tenets (pun intended) of the sonnet.

Alid, post whatever you have and we can all help. If we don't post rough drafts we won't have the chance to guide the changes. Does that make sense?

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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but I will need time to think how to put them together. Like I once said, finding the ideas are easy for me, its putting them into words, that's hard.

Alid

There is no shame in trying new things and not being instantly good at them. Heck, I'm having to re-edit the edit on my weak attempt lol. But if one never fails it's likely because one never tries and you can always look to my shop poem for a bad example of iambic pentameter .........stan

you know how to start. My mind is tangled with ideas but I'm at a loss on how to start. There's this idea on boadicea calling her men to arms to strike against the romans and another about being her warrior in battle. they keep popping up but without the starting, they are just ideas....sigh

Alid

involves stating a question then answering it, a good place to begin is deciding what question to ask

I only concentrated on thng at a time the rhyme scheme so I know meters got to be off and iamb pentameter lost in translation but I can fix that. Il will be looking for suggestions to get this right. Then I'll try another to see if I get it. I haven't yet gotten meter or unstressed stressed down

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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Tip 1.

*Nouns, Verbs, Adjectives, Adverbs are STRESSED SYLLABLES

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Noun: REC-ord , RE-fund , DIS-count
Verb: re-CORD , re-FUND , dis-COUNT
and many more, even mono-syllabled words
puff , hoot , -that become PUFF-ing and HOOT-ing

adjectives
soft , when adverb SOFT-ly
lots of others....

It is more complicated than throwing out a generalisation

Love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

if you read the rest of the tips,

I said in Tip No. 5

*for words (words include nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs of course) of more than one syllable, BETTER CHECK THE DICTIONARY.

 

I also said in Tip 3

**that suffixes and prefixes ( these are ANY addition to the original word is called prefix, any addition to the word at the end is a suffix are unstressed (those include the "RE" in rework, "ILL" as in illIGAL, "im" as in imPATIENT, "en" as in enRICH, etc and the "LY" as in WIDEly, and the "Y" as in  HANDy and so on

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Record, for example is a noun AND a verb
If used as a noun, the pronunciation is REC -ord
If used as a verb, the pronunciation is
re-CORD
etc...

and for another example - the word 'condition' , beginning unstressed, then 're' as a prefix is stressed

Judy
Xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

so it is within TIP 5 where I said BETTER check the dictionary.

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REcord and reCord as the re here is not a prefix
but in my orginal post about prefixes and suffixes that's Tip 5 I used "reWORK" as an example.

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I know you care to be so clear about things.:)

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Before seeing you had answered it
I think tip 1 is a little misleading, that's all - tip 5 needed to be tip 1a...

But please see my comment that I added to my above... re prefixes placed before words beginning unstressed
con-DIT-ion ... RE-con-DIT-ion

xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Yes, ideed I see your point here. As I can see it is taking a secondary stress.
A new lesson today. I think this IS what are workshops all bout :) :)

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We can all learn so much from them. They make us think.
And I really notice our improvement in both our knowledge of literature, and i our writing - it so improves
We all take away so much
This has, so far, been a really great shop Rula - well prepared, and the enthusiasm everyone has shown proves this

lol - my only complaint is that I'm hanging to get on with the Elizabethan.... lol I already have two written, and and am off onto my third - lol your shop has tempted back my muses, thank you - and if it takes too long to get onto that form, I'll get all stressed not knowing which one to submit (((smiles)))

thank you Rula
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I agree with you in how much the workshops are effective. And I can't thank you enough for your cooperation. Your words of encouragement are highly appreciated. Thank you dear.

 

As for the Elizabethan sonnet, lol, I wish you won't wait too long. However, I don't like, nort want to rush anyone as sonnets are really not an easy forms to construct.

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Thanks your tips might just make me master this once and for all.

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Tip 2

The articles (a, the)... are UNSTRESSED

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Tip 3

prefixes and suffixes are UNSTRESSED

"re" such as reWORK ....re is unstressed

"ly" such as kindly.......ly is unstressed

"ful" such as in CAREful ful is unstressed

"ing" such as in "MISSing" is unstressed.....etc.

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from the tip above, would it be right to say that ly, ful and ing become invalid when the sonnet demands the syllable sequence of unstressed followed by stressed syllable?

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

he TOLD | a FIB | and LY | -ing IS | - 'nt NICE
do you see how the stressed and unstressed syllables of the word 'lying' and 'isn't', fit the pattern
Any word can be made to fit - the whole word does not have to be within the same foot

Does that answer your question?
Xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Thanks for explaining with examples...i didnt know till now that the splitting of a word over two feet is allowed...makes sense now...

i am guessing wild here but i strongly believe that you must have been a teacher at some point in time and i must say a very good teacher....for me you certainly are..

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

but never have been a teacher....
Although within my profession I have taken education roles from time to time

It tickles me pink to see the progress you are making, and I am pleased that you think I am helping...I was thinking I was confusing you more ... that is, until you came up with the above little classics
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

if you have the inclination, go back over all our discussions we've had on your write... read them all from the beginning...
Now that iambic pentameter has clicked for you, they might make a little more sense, and you will perhaps pick up on a few things that you maybe missed as you didn't quite understand at the time....

happy iambicing ... I'm really looking forward to your next write
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

But for the patience you have shown with me and your making extra efforts to elucidate and explain the nuances i wouldn't possibly have been motivated to continue attempting sonnets... now i have reached a situation where i feel compelled to come up with a good new one after tweaking up the two i have been attempting..one of which Judyanne has almost completely tweaked up...

warm regards and a big THANKS...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Tip 4

Prepositions (in, on, at, for,....etc) are UNSTRESSED

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Tip 5

Words of two syllables or more.... better check the dictionary

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ask ...ask...ask any question. Do the tips make any difference?

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thank you very,very much for the tips. You've ust lifted my confidence abit.;D

Alid

this list of tips will help me more than any other thing I've seen in determining what is and isn't stressed. I must have the poetic equivalence of tone deafness and Needed something like this to help overcome my disability....thank you.....stan

this list of tips will help me more than any other thing I've seen in determining what is and isn't stressed. I must have the poetic equivalence of tone deafness and Needed something like this to help overcome my disability....thank you.....stan

I see there is much improvement in your sonnet. Few things and you're there.
Keep up the great job.

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Thank you for posting these tips....

your signature line read "My success is always under construction" i discovered a tag line "my sonnet is under construction"

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

still don't want to officially join? :)

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welcome all!

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Best workshop ever.

Alid, don't sweat original thought. That was merely food for thought and is not expected of anyone.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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I think every one is doing GREAT!
Awaiting for the others. Hope they won't give up.
Those who haven't submitted anything till now, please don't shy to ask.
If you wish to submit a line or two to make sure you've got the idea of the iambic pentemeter, it is ok with me.
Anything and everything satisfies me.

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Just posted my poem for the workshop. phew!! now abit relieved.lol.

Alid

.

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I ride THROUGH the CORriDORS of LIFE

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I RIDE | through the |CORri |DORS of |LIFE

i RIDE| inTO| the CO | riDORS | of LIFE

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I tried to find if on www.dictionary.com if one can get information on if a word or portion thereof (in case of a two syllabled word) is stressed or unstressed. However i couldn't find it there. Can you guide me on how to find it out?

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

the word "Lovely", there will be a subscription with something like

love.ly [luhv-lee]

where [luhv...] is the STRESSED syllable

[lee]... is the unstressed syllable

 

Try it and come back to me it didn't work.

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Thanks. I will check out and get back to you.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I wondered how read thT, no I know

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It is time for you to invest in a "poet' craft book". There are lots of them out their. My favorite is Williard R. Espy's "Words to Rhyme With". It is a rhyming dictionary with a craft book. The book starts with meter and rhyme scheme, then discusses the major poetic forms (including the sonnet).
You can buy them cheap, used and online.
Also, dictionary,com will not give you the stresses for the most part.
Try Googling "poetry meter".

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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Thanks for the tip. I will try to find the book online.

You are right. Dictionary.com does show the rhyme but not always the strssed and unstressed portions thereof.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

while waiting for others to submit their sonnets, let's compose a couplet in iambic pentameter ( two lines in iambic pentameter )
So we keep the practice on. Let's submit it on this thread.

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Be IT so THAT a SONnet GIVES me CREEPS
though NOT as MUCH as MAKE me CRY all NIGHT

does it mean next you would want the two lines to be converted into an iambic pentameter quatrain?

I am sweating already...lol..

raj (sublime_ocean)

bug I think I will "attack'' the two lines at their source.

You present a very good example of line interpretation by the reader.

Be it / so that a / SONnet / GIVES me / CREEPS (although your scansion works I think mine will be the more common way of reading it. It is mostly trochee.

In the second line "make" should be "makes".

And yes, if you're in you're in. We need the beginnings of a Petrarchan sonnet and those two lines are a good start. :look at Rula's and my examples. They are written in as strict a sytle as possible. They are well within your skill set if you simply focus.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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Thanks Wesley for your encouraging comment and appreciating those lines. However, i had to re work on those (below) because Rula said that Be is not an unstressed word.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

Comment duplicated

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Funtion words; such as, as for are at but do be etc, can be often stressed if used at the beginning or end of a sentence. If used within the sentence they are usually unstressed
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Thanks for this important tip, without which i would have thought those words always to be stressed though to my ears they felt soft..

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

Here's my try

I wish the end of wars is not a dream,
that men can lived in peace and harmony

Alid

Though I am not happy with harmony as the last syllable isn't stressed

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How about this?

I wish the end of wars is not a dream,
that men can lived in peace for many years

Alid

You have one foot that isn't iamb
Can you tell me which one it is?

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is it "though"?

raj (sublime_ocean)

The first foot raj

BE it

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may BE a SONnet GIVES me HEAPS of CREEPS
though NOT as MUCH as MAKE me CRY all NIGHT

raj (sublime_ocean)

Would you like to extend this couplet... to a sonnet perhaps? :)

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I knew you may want this to be worked further into a quatrain but BOY! you are expecting a lot from a nursery student...don't you think so? :)

raj (sublime_ocean)

every time. We can work on it together until you are comfortable with it. Then you can build on.
I know this is a shark pool and I expect you to become one soon. That's why:)

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Oh yeah...it pretty well is full of sharks...lol..

raj (sublime_ocean)

but since I always sonneteers' praise
will you make me an
H O N A R A RY
SONNETEAR
PLEASE

I am afraid it is more natural as

MAY be

but

I may COME

Do you get me?

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Let me tell you why:
First line, first foot- "maybe" is pronounced with accent on the first syllable making it trochee and not iamb.
The rest of the line could be scanned in a number of ways including iamb. Whatever leads the line however, will lead the line. Start with trochee and the line will struggle to read trochee.

W. H. Snow

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Learn how, teach others.
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I've added you after your permission.
You've been as active as all those who are listed in the workshop.
Hope you don't mind it.

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I had already shared with you the reasons why I prefer not to be a part of a workshop. I do appreciate very much your gesture and mean no dis respect while opting out. I hope you appreciate the reason.

Respectfully,

raj (sublime_ocean)

However, you are already in but this doesn't put any extra burden on you. Act freely, please.

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When you have some time, could you put together all tips, norms, rules, exceptions, etc. related to a sonnet which you and Judyanne have so kindly given during the WS so far? It would help readers to have them in one place rather than scrolling up and down, especially at a tie when they have to look at so many aspects while trying to piece together a sonnet.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

it would be really difficult to sort everything in one place. It would be a word wall then and no one will be interested in reading it, but I'll see what I can do with it.
It might take some time as I have few other things that need my attention at home tomorrow.

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I appreciate what you are saying. You have been overworked already running this WS admirably with such involvement, commitment and passion. I will therefore choose not to tax you further and will find a way to get the information organized.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

catchING a BUG got ME feelING grumPY
runNY nose COUGHing SNEEZEing MY lungs OUT
just AIN'T no FUN a COLD winTER weekEND
back AND forth HOSpiTAL now DAD is SICK. .

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Your Version

catchING a BUG got ME feelING grumPY
runNY nose COUGHing SNEEZEing MY lungs OUT
just AIN'T no FUN a COLD winTER weekEND
back AND forth HOSpiTAL now DAD is SICK. .

How it is really parsed

CATCHing | a BUG | GOT me | FEELing | GRUMpy|
RUNNy |NOSE COU|GH ing |SNEEZing |my LUNGS| OUT ( Half a foot is more)
JUST aint | no FUN |a COLD | WINter |WEEKend|
BACK and| FORTH HOSpi|tal now |DAD is| SICK . ( half a foot is less)

As you see Barbara, most of your lines are Trochaic, that is, the STRESS comes first then the unstressed. which should be quite the opposite.

REMEMBER
Nouns, verbs, adverbs and adectives are usually stressed. Other functional words, articles, and prepositions, are not stressed.

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Stressed first was intentional on my part. Is that wrong, why and how is it supposed to be parsed?

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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of the iamb.
In the iambic foot (which we are using in writing sonnets)
Unstressed syllable comes first then stressed
the WEATH| er's COLD

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to know ....
which word is stressed
which is not to be hence
i FAILED
X// or //X
WELL
I enjoyed reading most of your views
sorry for the intrusion

but here it is again. It took me a hundred times trying to figure it out.
Iamb is a poetic "foot" of two syllables. The first syllable is unstressed, the second syllable is stressed.
Scanned thus: "when I / have FEARS / that I / may CEASE / to BE"
Each separation denotes an individual foot, so five feet means the line is pentameter (from the Gr. "penta" or five).
Each foot is two syllables with the first unaccented and the second stressed.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Penta is five. Ok I forgot that and was doing ten. Two syllables word is iamb. Ok got that. I'll try this again Rula and Wesley.

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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Look at Rula's word below "accumulate". Scanned it would read "ac-CUM / u-LATE". It is made of two iambic feet. A multiple syllable word that may or may not read iambically.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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TIP 1

Words of two syllables or more.... better check the dictionary

TIP 2

The articles (a, the)... are UNSTRESSED

 TIP 3

Prepositions (in, on, at, for,....etc) are UNSTRESSED

TIP4

prefixes and suffixes are UNSTRESSED "re" such as |reWORK| ....re is unstressed "ly" such as |KINDly|.......ly is unstressed "ful" such as in |CAREful| ful is unstressed "ing" such as in |MISSing| is unstressed.

TIP5

Nouns, Verbs, Adjectives, and Adverbs are stressed when of monosyllable.

When more than one syllable Please BETTER CHECK THE DICTIONARY

EXCEPTION

When the first syllable is unstressed the prefix (the additional part at the beginning) is stressed (Example provided by Judyanne  "con-DI-tion-AL"     "UN-con-DI-tion-AL"

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Very much appreciate your finding time to put together the tips. can you give a tip about Genders, e.g. he, she, it, they as to if they are stressed or unstressed?

I tried to figure out how to use Bold, underline, italics and such other formating options using advanced text option but couldnt find the B, I, U keys.

 

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

As for the pronouns, these more decided according to the context. It is more the author who decides if they are minor or major, and therefore, stressed or unstressed. But let's say that pronouns are usually weak and unstressed, but as I said, the context decides better.
Thanks for asking.

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Thanks Rula for the elaboration.

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I have accumulated the rules of stressed, unstressed syllables in one thread.
I hope this helps a bit.

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underlined and italics follow these steps

1. After you finish writing change the text from "simple formatting" to "advanced formatting"
2. select the part you need to format
* choose "ctrl" (control) + B to change to bold
* choose "ctrl" + U to underline the text
*choose " ctrl" + I to change to italics
More about it, follow this link an advanced lesson by our old friend Swamp witch
https://www.neopoet.com/swamp-witch/blog/sat-2014-03-22-2100

Hope these tips help
Pleas come back if they didn't work

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Thanks again Rula for providing tips on formatting text for Underline, Bold, Italic. In fact I had tried out the Ctrl + options mentioned by you before writing to you. At that time they did not work. Will try again.

Thanks again,

raj (sublime_ocean)

To choose the advanced formatting.

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Yes of course I had done that too. Tried again. Vola...it worked!

Thanks for the help,

raj (sublime_ocean)

in a couple of days. I shall briefly introduce the Elizabethan Sonnet where there are few differences, but we are still composing with iambic pentemeter, so I expect you will all be more relaxed with the meter thing which, I think, is the hardest part.
Saying this, I still expect everyone to submit his Petrarchan sonnet (even if in a rough draft) the coming few days.
Remember, working on a rough draft shall make your job easier when we start our Elizabethan.
Have a good night/day all shark friends :)

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CAUGHT the|WIN ter|BUG now|FEEL ing |GRUMpy|
RUN ny|NOSE and|SNEEZ ing|GOT me|WEAR y|
ALL my|PLANS was|STOP this|WIN ter|WEEK end|
BACK and|FORTH to|SIT with|DAD by|HOS pice|

TOOTH is|HURT ing|MAKE me| WANT to|CRY out|

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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but none of them is iambic. All of them are trochaic as they all started with stressed syllable followed by unstressed.

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I will try it again. A tip from me—my brain flips everything I hear or read like reading from right to left instead of left to right often times. Nothing I can do or have tried to decrease how often this happens. So bare with me im not as slow as my tax preparer told me today lol. She got us down from paying $1000 to $61 yepee no more tax refund checks lol.

I'll do it again and hopefully my brain won't flip and think I on a roll getting it right. Lol

Another try
i CAUGHT|a WIN| ter BUG| that HAS|me CROSS|
my NOSE|is DRIP|ing SNEEZ|ing GOT|me SPENT|
my PLANS|de RAILED|this WIN|ter WEEK|end LOST|
a BRO|ken TOOTH|and SWOL|len JAW|won't QUIT|

then BACK| and FORTH|to HOS|pice DAD|is SICK|
now HOME|with FA|mi LY|the MEDIC|is CALLED|
and KIDS|are HELP|ing TAKE|ing CARE|of HIM|
no WAY|a NURS|ing HOME|for DAD|won't DO|

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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Good job.
only one foot didn't work

now HOME|with FA|mi LY|the MEDIC|is CALLED|

now HOME|with FA|mi LY| the ME | dic is|CALLED (easily fixed) |dic's CALLED|

Now up to the sonnet, Hurry up dear!!

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I know this is going outside the 2 types sonnets being covered in this shop but are there sonnets which use other meters than iambic?

and did it in Alexandrine meter (twelve syllable per line, generally iambic).

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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I read some sonnets written in tetrameter iambic ( a verse with four iambic feet), but the most official and popular are the pentameter iambic.

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it for some reason sounded more "natural" to my ear. Then I found out that 5 feet were required and I promptly messed it up trying to add that additional foot lol. Well......onward to instructions for next sonnet

I have completed the bones of the Petrarchan sonnet just have to sort out that Iambic penty something, and the rhyme in the correct place, not much to do lol,
This is the rough, rough, bit:-

Sitting waiting here for inspiration
Can’t describe my adulations truth
Here are words that flow magically out.
Caressing rawness held as base thoughts
Bear with me as winter dulls my minds feel
We are not unique in our locked in souls

Listen to all the cry’s from the children
They will show you the sound of hunger
Believe in those values taught by your Mom
That the life she gave you was a thing of beauty
Learn that around you are the buildings of life
Walk out greet the dawn it is yours as a gift

Listen to that inner self it will guide your hand
Capture the feelings there to build your land

When sorted that Italian Shakespeare will have to watch out, lol, just to show I have done something.. Yours Ian

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

I still hope you find the time and the will to sort these things out. You are for it.

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or also called the English sonnet and the Shakespearian sonnet because Shakespeare became the most famous practitioner of this form of sonnet.

The Elizabethan sonnet comprises three quatrains (each quatrain is four line verses in iamb pentemeter) that rhyme a-b-a-b / c-d-c-d / e-f-e-f  and a couplet (two lines in iambic pentemeter)that rhymes gg

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looks like the rhyme is more flexible.

Alid

Is there a Volta in the Elizabethan sooner. If so, is it in line nine?

Thanks

Scott

and it starts there.

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submitted mine Khalid. Hope you like it and find this sonnet variation easier to compose.

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I've just submitted mine to the workshop. Sonnets are just NOT my cup of tea but its good to challenge myself in workshop like this..Still not good with the meter, though. Still find it very tough. Your sonnets sounds beautiful. Mine sounds raw and edgy. :c

Alid

needs practicing, alot.

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and one point seems to be under-emphasised.
Sonnets, correct me if I am wrong, are always 14 lines.

I have run many workshops on meter and the problem between regional accents seems so insurmountable to me that I have never tried again. The first few I entirely lost my temper with trouble-makers who refused to accept the terminology, however the accents thing is the worst. Americans say CIGarette, Brits and Aussies say cigaRETTE, etc. Dictionaries do offer stress information in phonetics, if you have a good one.

Considering I have studied the various forms is it too late for me to join this workshop? I need the practice, however a no answer will be understood, I will still offer support where I can.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

We still have few days. Are you familier with the rhyme scheme ? And which sonnet version are you intending. We have so far discussed the English and the Petrarchan.

Any questions?

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will do, only one sonnet
English

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Shark's pool jess. You are for it jess.
I am thrilled. I really am.

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let's see one of our best's sonnet.

Alid

Jess nailed it.
A sonnet. Any sonnet. Is fourteen lines in length. There is no wiggle room here in this workshop. I believe Rula has asked for the first of the Elizabethan sonnets, so let's make sure we have fourteen lines of iambic pentameter in the appropriate rhyme scheme.
We will always... always make exceptions for Jess.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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What is the correct rhyme scheme?

Thanks

Scott

I am copying and pasting the rhyme sequence provided by Rula a few comments up

"The Elizabethan sonnet comprises three quatrains (each quatrain is four line verses in iamb pentemeter) that rhyme a-b-a-b / c-d-c-d / e-f-e-f and a couplet (two lines in iambic pentemeter)that rhymes gg"

hope this answers your query..

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

Raj

Scott

just often forgive me.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I am not sure how I missed your question. Really sorry.
And Raj, thanks for answering the question.

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No need to thank, it wasn't a big deal to just copy and paste the rhyme sequence provided by you..

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I think we are, but it will take me some time to figure out who. Rula has put me in charge for a couple of days while she deals with family matters and I don't want the shop to slow down on my watch (although it wasn't conceived as a long running workshop).
As you know who you are we would very much like to see your Shakespearean works (done in the tradition style of course).
As always, if there are questions please ask.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Rula will return momentarily and since she's the one we came to see I hope everyone doesn't disappear during intermission (for lack of a better term).
I know there are some submissions still to be made. I would love to see them lined up for her when she gets back.
In the meantime, no where near enough of you insulted my poems.
Not many sharks in these waters.
Except for the Great White Judyanne. A shark after my own heart.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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Just coming of an illness and behind on work. Moving too. Hope to dive back in soon

Scott

.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Scott

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Don't have energy being sick. I'm using it all up to write a good Sonnet. How is my sonnet bf starting the next one. Sharks

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I see dear judy is helping with suggestions. I too recommend starting with the Elizabethan. Make sure to follow the right rhyme scheme from the beginning. It's always easier than reworking it later..
Also make sure to compose three quatrains and a couplet with a volta starting at the ninth line

See more here

https://www.neopoet.com/comment/116776#comment-116776

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Don't have energy being sick. I'm using it all up to write a good Sonnet. How is my sonnet bf starting the next one. Sharks

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

Neopoet Community

I am in for few minutes. Thank you sir for covering me. I know it's not the best time to be away but I have a dear guest till tomorrow. I know I can count on all the sharks in my pool.
I am patiently waiting for the sharks' Elizabethan sonnet. Meanwhile for those who achieved both successfully, please take few minutes to tear the already submitted ones into chums staring with Sir Wesley's and mine. All suggestions and feedback is more than welcome.
Please don't let the zeal "wind up".

Appreciate everyone's participation.

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We are here about to conclude. If anyone still has something to offer, please don't hesitate. I welcome any submissions. All I ask is a hint.
If not we (Sir Wesley and I ) will InSha'a Allah conclude within a couple of days or so.
Till then ...Thank you and good night.

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I think this workshop needs at least another week to fulfil the requirements of Shark Pool. Intense critical feedback on everything submitted. Fair enough?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

If only to give me the opportunity to praise Rula.
But yes, here in the Shark Pool everything should be analyzed and suggestions made.
Here's my complaint/suggestion.
Rula and I deliberately kept the number of participants low so there could be an across the board involvement. Still with so few poets involved, not every poet critiqued every poem. I am guilty also. In the future I personally will keep better tally of such a thing so I can nag effectively. Everyone should bite everyone in the Shark Pool.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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sharks' critiques, but......:(
Still time is not over yet, I think

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Now they tell us where we went wrong. Fortunately I think if the complaints are too intense I will simply run the same workshop over immediately with all the participants the same and fix all the problems right away.
Stan ought to like that.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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The easy fix would be to delete me lol

That absolutely put a smile on my face, especially picturing Stan's reaction.
LoL, they better say good things about the workshop. At least I did my best, I think.
Thank you sir!
I wouldn't have done it without you.

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Could it be that they felt that they are not good enough to offer any? I mean even I have to admit that I think twice when I'm asked to offer critiques on the works of experts like yours, Judy, Wes and Jess. When one is not well-versed or unfamiliar with the form especially where it concerns meter, one might hesitate to comment or critic other's work who can write more smoothly in the form. Then there is also the matter about the number of verses and the strict rhyming in the sonnet style which the participants took a long time to tally as this is still a very new form for them. As a result, other people's works got overlooked and the participants themselves become quite exhausted. Some of us don't usually write long poems, let alone to do one with strict rhyming and meter rules. At least this is what some of us will be thinking.

Give us time, Rula. to be more confident in this form. Don't let this be your last sonnet workshop. We need more practice to be better.

Alid

I think we should give a chance and wait to see what are the real excuses. I think everyone likes to prove being a shark when it comes to poetry.
Thank you khalid

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There is a reason why this was scheduled in the Shark Pool and set to be a short, tough and relevant workshop. I trust the Shark Pool can increasingly be related to complex and challenging subjects and not... for the feint of heart.
Alid, you have plenty to critique. What of the meter as you understand it? That helps us all learn and what of the subject. With the volta, the subject of a sonnet is critical. You always have something to contribute and we are lessened if you do not.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Goodnight Gracie.
I can't believe what an absolutely cool workshop you ran.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
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Good night sir... Not a goof ball as Gracie I hope.
Wish others had fun as you did!
Shall conclude tomorrow hopefully if nothing more is going to be said.

GOOD NIGHT GRACIE :)

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Ok. Herein, we come to the end of our sonnet workshop. I am afraid I have nothing to say, BUT lots of love and appreciation to all who make my first workshop here a success. Special thanks to sir Wesley for his endless trust and words of encouragement, and my dear friend Juddyanne for taking the time in helping throughout with parsing and giving even suggestions for the participants to improve their sonnets. And a very big thank you to everyone put trust in me and joined me in this workshop no matter if he could or could not come up with a perfect sonnet. We all know there is no perfect poem after all.
It was a great experience. I have always been a teacher, but this has a special taste.

Hope you have shared me the fun and the joy through out.
To prove that sonnets are not an easy job sometimes, here I'd like to end with this funny piece about learning to write a sonnet by Denise Rodgers
Please enjoy

The sonnet form is old and full of dust
And yet I want to learn to write one well.
To learn new forms and grow is quite a must,
But I will learn it quickly, I can tell.
And so I sit, today, with pen in hand,
Composing three new quatrains with a rhyme.
The rhythm flows like wind at my command.
The A-B-A-B form consumes my time.
But I’m not done until there’s fourteen lines.
One ending couplet, after three quatrains.
I’ve tried to write this new form several times.
The effort’s huge; I have to rack my brain.

But I persist, my fourteen lines now done.
I wrote my poem; my sonnet work is won.

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Congratulations for doing a good job in conducting this workshop on sonnets. I liked the way you ended it too with a humorous piece which lets me know that there are great poets too who found the going tough as much as i did with this form...lol...

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

I have enjoyed this WS
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I agree with what Judyanne said "I enjoyed this WS" with a small change "this WS annoyed me enough to get interested in this form"...lol..

raj (sublime_ocean)

Sometimes it's good to work out of our comfortable zone, isn't it?

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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I am so sorry that I failed a lot on this workshop but I did learn many things and you carried out the workshop with great care and it was a reflection on you.
Thank you for this great workshop,
Yours as always Ian

.
Give critique to help keep Neopoet great.
Unconditional love to you all.
"Learn to love yourself first"
Yours as always, Ian.T, Sparrow, and Yenti

don't let this be your last one.

Alid

Thanks for the great workshop.

Scott

Thank you! Please consider joining Sir Wesley's new workshop "Meter is our friend".
Judy and I will be there too :)
Promise to be a bit funnier than this one...Hopefully :)

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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good to know both you and Judyanne would be there to support Wesley...two women who are so hands on and bright with meter than i am tempted to nick you both as meteorites :)

good luck to the three of you and participants...may this WS too be as informative and well organized as the Sonnet one...

Regards,

raj (sublime_ocean)

compliment Raj.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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I'm afraid I didn't carry it out in full and was hypocritical in demanding Shark Pool critique that I myself didn't provide, I can only claim health and physical injury at the moment. I will try to come back to some of the posting later with at least a bit of a feeding frenzy [grins].

You are very much valued here, Rula.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

be well.
Looking forward to your critique. Ending the workshop doesn't mean that you and others can't come to it anytime. I only concluded to give a chance for other workshop leaders.
Appreciate your visits.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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Your patience with my fumbling is admirable. i still suck at sonnets but at least I don't think i suck as badly lol. The only thing I think I'd have done differently was to switch places with which type sonnet to begin with. It might just be me but the Elizabethan style seems .......I hesitate to say "easier" as there's little easy about it.......than the other type and I would have started easy then gone to difficult. i almost felt like I had to start with calculus then the next class was algebra lol

save for the easier rhyme scheme in the Elizabethan. That's all it is. Both are fourteen lines of iambic pentameter (see my upcoming workshop). Both have a volta on line nine. Both have an envoy of sorts.
Do me a favor. Write the first two verses of an Elizabethan. You'll need them for the workshop. Two verses in iambic pentameter. I don't care if they rhyme. I don't care if they make sense. The meter is the only priority.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
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and what you said proves that practicing makes perfect or, at least, in our case makes things every time less hard. Thank you for the feedback though. Next time I shall sure consider this point.
Will be looking for the two verses in iamb.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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It's cheating, but the first thing you'll need are two verses of iambic pentameter.
This is true for anyone signed up who happens to read this. Though a lot of explanation will be offered first, those verses will be the first in three exercises.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

I barely got Italian and didn't get Elizabethan but I did learn some thing. Thanks for running the ws. I wasn't feeling well so I couldn't give it much participation. Glad to get what I do understand.

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

Neopoet Community

Rula and Wesley, you have redefined the Shark Pool to the benefit of all. Nothing lost, poets gain. I can not begin to express my admiration and gratitude for what you have achieved.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

It was a great first experience with sir Wesley and dearest Judy.
Thanks for your great words.
Absolutely appreciated.

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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"First half" did he say?
Not right away, but I'm sure you all are aware that most participants put all their energies (considerable) into but one of the two poem types. I suggest we run this again in a few months and work on "the other one".

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

I think I know what everyone is thinking now...lol

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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I am still not ready to play along side Sharks :)

raj (sublime_ocean)

did he say? :). I guarantee you being recovered by then from flirting "first" miss Sonnet and ready for the "next" raj

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Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

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author comment

Looks like my Flirting story is being rumored like wild fire...not sure if it's a good tag for me..lol...

[grinning]

raj (sublime_ocean)

I think it wiped me out learning sonnets lol. Great job you too

*Collaborative Poetry Workshop* American Version of Japanese Poetry ~ Renga ~ Haiku, Senyru, Tanka.

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