About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

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Rhyme- use, variations and forms.

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description: The use of rhyme, its forms and variations.

Leader: weirdelf
Moderator(s): themoonman

Objectives: By the end of the workshop participants will be more knowledgeable and comfortable in the use of rhyme and its consequences.

Subject matter:
In this workshop we will be discussing and writing various forms of rhyme. We'll hope to cover such things as-
alliteration
assonance
consonance
half-rhyme and partial rhyme
internal rhyme
strong and weak rhymes
rhyme schemes
single, double and triple rhymes
stretching for rhyme

1. We will start with a discussion on the value of rhyme, questioning its use at all. We will not get into a fight about it! We'll just present our own personal perspectives.

2. Participate in rhyme exercises and/or submit examples of forms you want to explore which everyone will critique.

Please contact me by PM to join. If you can't commit to the whole rhyme workshop you will be allowed to post examples/experiments if you contribute to the discussion on the workshop page and critique at least 3 other workshop postings for each of your own. Contact me by PM so that I can add you as a workshop participant.

I also ask of each participant, whether casual or committed that you check all the postings and give critique. By implementing this casual approach I am committing to being very hands on and I won't be able to do it alone. For everything you post make sure you give critiques to every other posting, please. Bookmark this page and the workshop postings page-
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/view/6125
and don't forget to select 'Rhyme- use, variations and forms.' in the workshop dropdown when you submit content!

Finally, this is Shark Pool, so all critique should be incisive and straight to the point, no room for amelioration or consideration of the poet's delicacy.

Have fun. That's an order.

Length: 
14 days
Number of participants (limit): 
10 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Wednesday, October 12, 2011
Short description: 
We discuss forms of rhyme such as assonance, consonance, half-rhyme, and partial rhyme.

Comments

Rhyme is undoubtedly a mnemonic aid- it is easier to remember and memorise rhymed verse. This is not necessarily a positive value. Who wants to remember bad poetry just because it rhymes? It is also a serious 'trap for young players'. Beginner poets striving for rhyme almost invariably sacrifice clarity, originality and always end up sounding either like an archaic Yoda or a nursery rhyme.

Whilst rhyme also clearly adds to the musicality of verse that needs to be considered and weighed against the fact that it drasticly reduces the word choices available. The poet needs to ask in every case which is more important here? Music? Or meaning and originality?

Rhyme is a useful tool, not a definitive element of poetry. Historically, culturally and inter-linguistically it is by no means a qualification for verse to be poetry.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

maybe can work on bettering my rhyme blog so it accurate and effective. It that is possible

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

I have every faith in you.

With the blog, go back to http://www.rhymer.com/ and read the examples there out loud, then fix the blog with your own examples if you can or others from this workshop might help. Attention everyone! Barbara's blog is at http://new.neopoet.com/barbara-writes/blog/thu-2011-10-06-0419

Having done that would be a major contribution to this workshop and anything you want to post for appraisal here would be most welcome.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

You're most welcome to drop in and offer critique. You'll find the poems posted for this workshop at
http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/view/6125

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I believe it will always have a place in poetry, but
I also feel it does limit originality and vocabulary while
making much of it sound like "mary had a little lamb"
I do like rhyme but free verse gives a poet more options
and besides, if any of you are interested, there are virtually
no reputable publishers accepting any rhyming poetry, not that
that is #1 on most poets list, it is a choice, a preference, and the
battle for who's best suited for poetry has been going on for some
time, but the truth be known, it's all poetry.

Reading the objectives of this workshop and the value addition it will bring to the participants has stimulated my interest...my present work commitments may not allow me to fully commit myself to participation...but i now know it will be hard for me to keep away from it for long spells of time...to read..learn..absorb and critic...

raj (sublime_ocean)

but remember this is Shark Pool. No just telling someone how nice their work is. Find what's wrong and offer suggestions. Scary, sure, but you've got to take the plunge.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Rhyme is historically important, imo, but relatively unimportant to modern poetry, as evidenced by Richard's observation that no major poetry publishers accept rhyming poetry.
Also, notice that good poetry, such as that of Rilke or Kabir, translates well into other languages, and is still consideredto be good poetry, even though it no longer rhymesthe way it did in its original form.
But, now I think on it, is rhyme unimportant today simply because poetry publishers don't want it? Is the reason for it's decline in importance monetary? An interesting thought.
I think rhyme is still important in two areas: first, as a teaching aide, and secondly, as a compliment to free verse, where selected lines of the poem can have far more impact if they rhyme, while the body of the poem does not.
As a teaching tool, rhyme forces poets to think more carefully about what they want to say, and how to say it. Creating good rhyming poetry is not easy, imo, and its inherent limitations force the poet to work within certain constraints of structure and pattern. I think that this is a good thing, as it makes the poet stretch her or his skills, and thus adds to them.

As a compliment to free verse, I often find myself using a rhyme at or towards the end of a poem. I find it focuses meaning, emotion, and the reader's mind, and thus makes the piece more memorable.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

"Rhymes, meters, stanza forms, etc., are like servants. If the master is fair enough to win their affection and firm enough to command their respect, the result is an orderly happy household. If he is too tyrannical, they give notice; if he lacks authority, they become slovenly, impertinent, drunk and dishonest." W. H. Auden

I rhyme because it is lovely to hear. Thinking on this over the last week, the bitter truth is this and this alone. Wesley likes his rhyme. When I decided to finally break down and start composing my epic poem six years ago, there was never any question I would use "heroic" couplets. Writing a pseudo medieval piece with a modern lean I could easily have chosen to use alliteration as the ancients did, but I wanted it to "sound" like a poem (something many poets here and elsewhere frown upon). The meter chosen (tetrameter) was secondary and influenced by Tolkien's "Lay of Leithian", one of my favorite poems. The rhyme scheme was never in question. When spoken aloud, I desired to poem to feel like a thing performed by a travelling bard for people of no education. Violence, sex, intrigue and...rhyme.

Rhyme is a new conception. I read the oldest extant rhyme in human literature is the Chinese Shi Ling (@10th century BCE) and though it appears in every culture on Earth in every time period of the historical eras, it seems not to have become popular until the 6th century or so. I have some ideas as to why it is being placed upon a back burner in western poetry now, but will save that discussion for later.

As to Milton's assertion that it limits the poet, I have never found this to be true. Indeed, it seems to me that rhyme leads. All of my small poems are written as experiments in form. An attempt to teach my poor, primeval brain to think in different ways. A couple of moons past, I wrote a poem with assonance as its rhyme scheme. It was brutal. However, what I discovered was that as I wrote, rhyme attempted to force its way to the fore. I found no difficulty in "hearing" the rhyme endings to each line. Had I chosen to write the thing with "perfect rhyme" it would have been accomplished in about ten minutes. As it was, it took me near three hours.

Having written some 20,000 lines of Çaço, Man of the Morning Star with couplets has done its work.
I am now and shall forever be...a rhymer.
Crucify me if you will, but I will extol the music from the cross.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

you know, I have an affection for rhyme. Like Wesley, it seems to force it's way to the fore when I am writing. I have written in other forms, such as Haiku, sonnets, and freeform, but I think in rhyme. I actually have to try and put it out of my head at the times that I want to write anything else! I like rhyme for the rhythm that it affords and it only limits my choice of words in a small way. It's too bad that many people think of rhyme as a form that is rather cheap and not a quality way to make poetry. Kind of like writing for greeting cards! ~ Gee

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Now you've each got a choice.

You can submit something you're working on (not too long please) for us to critique and help on it's rhyming values
or
We can set some exercises that might stretch you in your weak areas.
or both. Let me know or just post your submission.

And everyone please have a look at Barbaras blog
http://new.neopoet.com/barbara-writes/blog/thu-2011-10-06-0419
to offer feedback.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Strong rhymes. The last word is one syllable or the word's last is stressed.
Think of as many rhymes ays you can for one syllable, see if you can find some polysyllabic ones.

Weak rhyme. The last syllable is unstressed.
Like later/meter , see if you can find some polysyllabic ones.

Double Rhymes – words that have the last 2 syllables rhyme.
Like penny/many

Triple rhymes – words that have the last 3 syllables rhyme.
Like payable/delayable

Remember to post your attempts using "Submit Poem" and selecting Rhyme- use, variations and forms workshop.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Very interesting words too. The trick in this exercise is not so much counting syllables as making sure the stress is on the last one, the most common way rhymes that seem to rhyme but feel awkward is by mis-stress. e.g. we say dePLOY (strong rhyme) not DEEploy and COWboy (weak rhyme) not cowBOY. So we would try to avoid rhyming deploy with cowboy

1. CORD/u/roy [weak]
2. Re-/em/PLOY [strong]
3. CUN/je/voi [weak]
4. Did/i/COY [strong]
5. Ill/i/nois/is [not a real word and not an end rhyme]
6. Re/de/PLOY [strong]

Can you hear those stresses? Admittedly Scots or Americans may stress them differently or they may be different in context.

You're better than you think you are, kiddo!

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

"Admittedly Scots or Americans may stress them differently or they may be different in context." Yes it works fine. If you expand it post it as a poem as I explained in the PM to keep this thread clear for general discussion and announcements, as I explained in the PM, ok? No need to reply to this here.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

ths level of rhyming is above my Rhyme skill, so I find it a great challenge to grasp the point of "corduroy" So I'll be back when I am not passing out onto my tablet from sleep deprived.

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

read the poem and and contect on it's meaning. I know you cop out and cheat by using spellingn and grammar checkers. Look into youself for the meaning

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

but, I'm tired and exhausted and can't look into myself for something that not there. This why I take the lazy way out. Too exhausted to look stuff up sometimes and will forget to come back I'd I say I will
):-)

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

but, I'm tired and exhausted and can't look into myself for something that not there. This why I take the lazy way out. Too exhausted to look stuff up sometimes and will forget to come back I'd I say I will
):-)

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

I've just had an idea for a final poem for everyone to write towards the end of the workshop. I'm not telling yet, but it's going to be wicked taxing! [laughs evilly]

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I use a rhyming dictionary (which of course is not really a dictionary as there are no definitions). I also use a thesaurus and my favorite dictionary weighs over 25 pounds.
From time to time those of my friends who do not write (which is nigh all of them) remarks- "Isn't that cheating?"
My response is- "Here. Take these three books and YOU write a poem as lucid and lovely as I." This usually shuts them up.
There are very few words in my rhyming dictionary that I do not use in ordinary conversation. There are even less that I do not know. Someday there will be none. Therefore, all of the words in my rhyming dictionary are at my disposal. My problem is that were I to wait for the words to come to mind, I would still be writing my first poem.
I have never felt that having a "pocket brain" was cheating.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

If I could not buy a rhyming dictionary or thesaurus, I would create one. Byron's is in a museum in Britain and worth a few pounds. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

why not use any tool available in our pursuit of excellence. Sometimes though I fail to raise myself to my hind legs and haul my carcass to the bookshelf for the superior product and resort to the lesser online versions. I'm not proud of it, and if I don't find what I want I get those hind legs moving.

Have you thought of a poem to post to rhyme workshop or would you rather I devised a cunning and racking exercise for you?

Also have you visited Barbara's blog and Richard's posting?

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

...and visited Barbara's blog and Richard's posting. I am all over this workshop. wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

so critiquing mr blog would be great because I have lots of ambitions for rhyming right now. The more I understand the better my pursuits into rhyming will be.

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

read and critiqued already

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

I specifically asked you not to leave self deprecating comments. Challenge yourself and give harsh critism

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Is that harsh enough

I don't give what I don't like getting. The golden rule is what I practice.
Being here in the shark pool I suppose I must be harsh, but I can't. I would have to dig too deep to find it. But it's ther, I just keep the beast in me hidden because I can get really vicious and I don't like that about me. I lose control biting of limbs like a real life shark. Hehe

~
*Your present reality is a creation of your making good or bad..
*Poetry "Words weren't meant to impose but heal"
*Create Collaborative Poetry ~ Modern Day Japanese Renga
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/collaborative-poetry-beginners
Barbara

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Anyone who wants to make revisions on their submissions should now do so.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Assonance uses similar vowels sounds within a line (not at the end of different lines) to create a coherent lyrical flow. e.g. bart/smarl/barn

Consonance uses similar consonants within a line (not at the end of different lines) to create a coherent lyrical flow. e.g. bit/cat/snot

I would like each of you to compose a short piece of at least two verses where some verses use only assonance and some only consonance. Rhyme is optional.

Here is the kicker. Try to make the form fit the content. e.g. assonance might better suit clouds where consonance might suit rocks or emotionally assonance might suit harmony where consonance might fit conflicts. There are, of course, soft consonants, and short vowels are harder than long ones.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I've edited that exercise to give some examples.

Remember everyone I firmly believe that critiquing each other is as much a part of the learning process as doing the exercise.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Strong rhymes. The last word is one syllable or the word's last syllable is stressed.
Think of as many rhymes as you can for one syllable (boy/toy/coy/employ), see if you can find some polysyllabic ones.

Weak rhyme. The last syllable is unstressed.
Like later/meter/shooter , see if you can find some polysyllabic ones.

Double Rhymes – words that have the last 2 syllables rhyme.
Like penny/many

Triple rhymes – words that have the last 3 syllables rhyme.
Like payable/delayable

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

Assonance uses similar vowels sounds within a line (not at the end of different lines) to create a coherent lyrical flow. e.g. fart/snarl/barn

Consonance uses similar consonants within a line (not at the end of different lines) to create a coherent lyrical flow. e.g. bit/cat/snot

I would like each of you to compose a short piece of at least two verses where some verses use only assonance and some only consonance. Rhyme is not necessary, perhaps avoid it to emphasise the assonance and consonance.

Here is the kicker. Try to make the form fit the content. e.g. assonance might better suit clouds where consonance might suit rocks or emotionally assonance might suit harmony where consonance might fit conflicts. There are, of course, soft consonants, and short vowels are harder than long ones.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

http://new.neopoet.com/workshop/view/6125
for new postings.

The learning is in the critique, others and yours, as much as your own writing.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I've posted my own little ditty
http://new.neopoet.com/node/noisance

Bloody well done everyone, it is always interesting to find what really challenges us, and I'm constantly learning also about running workshops and trying to cut down on the brainfarts.
I would appreciate any critique and suggestions on the workshop itself.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I've yet to turn anyone away. Thanks for your input and have a good trip to the Antipodes. A hint- bribe one of the guards for an extra share of lime juice to ward off the dreaded scurvy.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

but more about what I did than others. How could I phrase the syllabus better? Should I continue my practice of not commenting till after others have? Am I too argumentative? See where I'm going? I really want to make these workshops work for everyone.

Remember I opened this workshop to casual participants so everyone gave what they could. And I have had feedback from total non-participants that they followed it and learned something, which gratifies me enormously.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

You know I believe strongly that learning to crit is an important part of learning poetry. So I must let the others go first and not follow my lead.

But I hear you. Sometimes there is little or no response to a poem and it becomes clear the other workshop participants don't know where where to start. Then I should step in and give a lead.

Thank you. This is the best workshop critique I've received. I appreciate your honesty.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

I learned quite a bit about rhyme, and how it fits in with pattern, cadence and flow.
More importantly, I enjoyed myself!
Only criticism: the workshop seemed to tail off at the end, and I was expecting one more exercise. But I loved the challenge, the criticism, and the ideas.
Good stuff, I'll do another when I have the time.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

and I was planning one more exercise, which was going to be gruesomely, pedantically difficult, but... Neotime is not the same as linear time and it seemed to me to have gone on for months and a chord of mercy struck my soul so I wound it up.

Any requests or suggestions for topics for upcoming workshops?

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment

or 4 or 5 (heehee), and I'll give it some thought.

Respectfully, Jim

"Laws and Rules don't kill freedom: narrow-minded intolerance does" - Race-9togo

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Race_9togo

.

Cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Associate Managing Director.
Contact the AC or myself with any queries or problems.

author comment
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