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Tempestuous (To Serve Poet WS)

Death crawled in through her sex hole
and ate me away until I was
just another stranger passing by
I mused over the blood I should be bleeding
teasing her with a playful game of hide and seek
she sought me deep into the marrow of my bones
before becoming familiar with me in that old haunt
where I hummed songs with Death
while holding hands with her uterus
she tattled on me to my god
and if my god were to exist
I most certainly would have to be punished

Style / type: 
Free verse
Review Request (Intensity): 
I want the raw truth, feel free to knock me on my back
Editing stage: 
Workshop: 

Comments

Yet somehow it doesn't hold together. it is hard to be specific here.
Hide and seek from what?
Becoming familiar with what about you?
Tattled on you about what?

Perhaps some punctuation might help.
I like moral ambihuity yet I can not decide who is really the victim here.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

true sir Jess , this holiday i want to come to Australia to visit you for i know your success has A BACKDROP( m.a'" IN POETRY}" boundary so that both our publication and oral poetry i will like to partake, i will donate one thousand dollars both for my trip and our forums for canvassing poetry to a larger extend with real audience NOT VISUAL GIZMOS LIKE ONLY THE INTERNET AND AWAITING

place to have this conversation.

Scott

author comment

although you know that the internet has been the most powerful force for re-populising poetry since the printing press.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

that you would choose to say this is hard and not offer a complete critique.

not from what, from who

becoming "familiar" with me

humming songs with death while holding hands with her uterus

Perhaps you should open up to the possibility of multiple victims

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

I have to agree with Jess, there seemed to be bits missing, the story incomplete.
Longish lines with breaks for breath, could bring this out into the open, there are a few questions as to cause and effect here.
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Agreeing with Jess only suggests that you have no critique to offer of your own. You can do better. Please do better. This workshop is about giving critique. Not offer a few words about ambiguity.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

That I agree with Jess should be comment enough but I did add cause and effect was missing from your write it was fractured and needs more to make it mean more,
Yours Ian.T
PS:- This piece was not really long enough to support too much critique.

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I don't think it serves the author to read the other critiques before providing your own. Why let someone else taint your point of view before providing an opinion. If everyone comments independently and the author continues to hear the same critique, it carries a lot more clout.

Had you read the piece and commented without referencing Jess I would give it more weight. But the fact that you concur, doesn't help me much at all. You will need to describe to me what "fractured" means because I cannot classify that as critique by itself.

Needs more what? You have not told me how you interpreted anything so how would I know what to add to make it more clear for you?

As for, "PS:- This piece was not really long enough to support too much critique." I am frankly a little insulted by this comment as I have written many short pieces that tell a solid story and that are packed with emotion. Again, this is a workshop about critique, not finding excuses as to why we can't.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

As Jess has had the top training for poetic works I put a lot of trust in his critique sometimes he is too nice other times he can strip all the vowels out of you, but as you need me to run through this piece with severe critique I have done so.
I hope this is the critique you wanted, I feel that sometimes I am too easy on poetry, and I read all the poems and the comments they fetch but usually I am one of the first to comment but as the subject was not one that I usually comment on I agreed with Jess plus a little more, so here is what I have on this one I took it out put it onto word away from the scene and this is my comment..

Death crawled in through her sex hole
and ate me away until I was
just another stranger passing by
(This three lined picture is more abstract than real, but as we give poetic leeway then I shall have to accept, but from my view, the crawling from or too this part seems obtuse, then you could be referring to AIDS then maybe it wouldn’t crawl, but then you ended up being nothing to the act)

I mused over the blood I should be bleeding
teasing her with a playful game of hide and seek

(You have now returned to the scene for more wondering why you aren’t bleeding, this needs more as you had already left the scene)

she sought me deep into the marrow of my bones
before becoming familiar with me in that old haunt
where I hummed songs with Death
while holding hands with her uterus

(Now this does seem like aids attacking your immune system so deep, a good description of an attack on the immune system,)

she tattled on me to my god
and if my god were to exist
I most certainly would have to be punished

(These three lines contradict each other, there is a God or not the words need to be rearranged to clarify the event)

I hope this is what you are after for your piece, were you to add a few lines to clarify the events in this piece then if the theme is about what I think it is then it is a good subject to write about,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

This is more like it. Well done, Sir. I may not agree with everything you have stated, but there is some substance here and I get a much better understanding of your previous comments because of this elaboration.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

Let's see if I can come up with something.......
S-1,l-1 try death entered me through her sex hole (clarifies which person death entered)
S--1, l-3 needs a period at the end (In my opinion punctuation is needed more when a poem consists of only one long stanza)
S-1,l- To heck with this stanza and line stuff lol. Easier to just repost with suggestions included in this instance

Death entered me through her sex hole
and ate me away
until I was just another passing stranger.
I mused over the blood I should be spilling
thus teasing her with a playful game of hide and seek.
She sought me deep into the marrow
becoming familiar with me in that old haunt
where I hummed songs with Death
while holding hands with her womb.
She betrayed me to my god
and were my god to exist
I would surely have been punished... (the ... was put there to signify that protagonist still expects punishment)

Hope I didn't mess this up too badly. BTW I read this as being about AIDS.....stan

an admirable attempt, but it is not about AIDS. Death did not enter the narrator so the premise you have offered will not work. I will take the other suggestions to the revision board with me.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

I can't critique because I am not a member of the workshop, but I will say that the piece holds promise, even if in a haphazard way! Keep tweaking it a bit and see what happens!

a rat's ass if you're in the workshop or not. Your opinion is valued so please leave it.

Thanks

Scott

Scott

author comment

wether you're in the workshop or not, Lonnie.

the only time it causes difficulties is where workshop submissions are written to a strict form, which is not the case here. This workshop is all about critique.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

and if that is the case, I don't get lines two and three and feel like the title should be something that emphasizes more of a mutually rending process. And I would just plain get rid of "She tattled on me to my god" since people tend to think capital-G God, anyway, is omniscient. The whole poem has a hostile feel for me so that I kind of wish "her" in line one was "its", the thing vs. the person with the sex hole.

The poem is about abortion.

Scott

author comment

in critiquing this one. If you are asking me to point out specific ways to make this better, I will fail.
I found it to be very disjointed [ although I think that this might be the very thing that you wish ].
Now that you have explained it as being about abortion, I realize that it makes more sense. I do agree that punctuation is needed here. I think it could make it a bit clearer as to what is going on. ~ Geezer

There is value to commenting and critique, tell us how you feel about our work.
This must be the place, 'cause there ain't no place like this place anywhere near this place.

I am getting caught up with everyone's use of the word disjointed. It would either mean incoherent (which I don't believe is what you mean) or out of sequence. The intended sequence is as follows:

act of abortion itself
the haunting of what could have been
the attempt to fabricate memories/want for a new child
unable to give birth again due to abortion
leading to blame

Please let me know if this is what you meant.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

That is what I meant. Until you explained the sequence I wasn't sure of it. Thank you for explaining.~ Gee

There is value to commenting and critique, tell us how you feel about our work.
This must be the place, 'cause there ain't no place like this place anywhere near this place.

and much of the confusion for me is about who is speaking. Who is "her/I/she" in various parts of the poem? I thought the fetus was the speaker in the entire poem but from reading your sequence, it seems the mother is the speaker in the last lines. For me, an interesting question is why none of us could understand the poem is about abortion. I had initially thought it was about miscarriage so am unsure why I didn't make the link to abortion. Maybe some of the other readers can write as to why the topic seemed so hard to grasp. Again, I think a different title might frame the topic more clearly. I wonder if Stan thought it was about AIDS because "tempestuous" inclines one to think of an adult love affair.

You had trouble with he/i/she. I have gone back through each and feel like they are clear. I also am not certain why everyone is having trouble with this one. I have had it in front of other poets who had no trouble and raved about it. It could be the title. I'm not locked into it and agree it may have led Stan to his thought process.

The fetus is the narrator throughout. The timeline just explains what she was going through.

I will add punctuation during rewrite but I'm not ready to go there until I have exhausted the critique.

For me, I thought the opening lines may have given it away too early. Who else would be inside her for death to eat? I hadn't taken into miscarriage. I will in the rewrite.

Thanks

Scott

Scott

author comment

the consensus is that the poem is obscure and does not convey the meaning.
The only question is what you are going to do about it.
If you are brave enough to name abortion in the poem that comes with an obligation to make a moral stance on it. Are you shirking that?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

but I don't feel like there is anything to face, yet. Obscure? Perhaps, but to say it does not convey the meaning doesn't hold water with me. As I stated before, other poets have had no issues with discerning the topic. At this point, no one is conveying to me exactly why they feel the poem is obscure. Only a few comments, questions really, here and there about what this or what that may mean. Tell me what you think the opening lines mean. Tell me what you think the closing means. I am not asking for ideas, simply interpretation. If you cannot get it, then I need to know how it was read to understand what to change.

I do not consider it brave to write about feelings that occur in life. And writing about abortion does not saddle me with any moral obligation. I am not taking on whether abortion is right or wrong. I am merely describing a situation that I saw a friend deal with and the emotions that came along with the circumstance.

As you know I have spent a great deal of time in the past working with Wes on a number of my poems. He has often told me that the fact that others don't get the poem right away is not always my fault. He says he has to work for most of them. He does and he says the end result is worth while. He is not the only one to tell me this. So please don't ask me to concede a poem that many have liked (that I am only trying to take over the top to the next level as the syllabus indicated) based on a few comments about ambiguity without first addressing my comments above.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

the present form of this work. You have made it crystal-clear. ~ Gee

There is value to commenting and critique, tell us how you feel about our work.
This must be the place, 'cause there ain't no place like this place anywhere near this place.

Thank you, Sir.

Scott

author comment

I always think that if I have to explain even the surface meaning of a poem that I have failed as a writer. Abortion is a brutal business and also pretty straight forward. But the brutality is absent here and the fact that you are having to explain this kinda negates it being straight forward. Perhaps Hearing this poem spoken would make the difference because then the different inflections and such might clarify things. I'm still a bit confused about those last 3 lines. Did she tattle on herself via some kind of confession? And why would the fetus feel as if he/she deserves being punished? But you do display courage in writing about a topic which is so controversial.....Hmmmm....... maybe beginning this with a line of two about the protagonist being content and feeling loved would provide the contrast with the existing 1st line which is needed to both provide a better hint of subject matter and also add to the brutality which the fetus is subjected to...........stan

I will agree to disagree that explaining a poem makes it a failure. I have written complex poems that serious and talented poets on this site have not gotten only to send the poem to a friend or friends who get it without issue. Did they have to work for it? Yes. So what. There are many poems that I have not and will not understand. That doesn't make them failures. It just means I don't get it.

Abortion is brutal and the poem does lack some of the brutality. I don't feel it needed it. As stated above, the poem is about the feelings that were stirred after the act and is not entirely about the act itself.

I will see if I can gather the nerve to record the poem. This is not something I have done before. Jess usually does that for me.

In a sense, she did tattle on herself by blaming the fetus for the repercussions of her decision. The fetus feels the blame because they are childlike and, in fact, were the root cause for her not being able to bear children.

I do not see this writing as being courageous as I am merely writing about the emotions and not the controversy.

I understand your thoughts on picturing the brutality of the abortion, but I don't find it necessary to convey what she went through post act. I think that death crawling through a sex hole and eating a fetus is gratuitous enough.

I appreciate your willingness to continue to discuss these items as I hope to gain some clarity from everyone before hitting the rewrite.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

author comment

There are as many types of readers as there are poems. I did not intend to label your poem a failure due to the fact it was misunderstood. I was simply telling you that I consider MY poetry as failed if I have to explain it. There are many many people who enjoy sitting around having to study and piece together a poem such as yours. As to the brutality She went through, that's not the brutality I was referring to. I meant the pain and suffering of the fetus who had no say in whether it was killed or not. Looking forward to the eventual rewrite.......stan

i saw this posted and knowing more of the authors
here from works..profile..comments etc...
i went over it...much like a lot of my goings on in life..
i am not so much in the action but an observer
like sayin g the un is an observer

been hanging about women forever and men
the odd time to form up on a crew or time
inside an establishment
tourist camp
treatment centre
pysch ward
jail
drunk bucket
rooming

men describe the womanly parts
like a car..a job..
rapture and joy and like news
at times
or disregard

and the women
just do
describe their parts as
nicknames and pop
slang at times
more freer
more open
and more solutions
at times

they are paid less
work harder
bear children
we dont
no carrying a child
depending with a child
fending with and for a child
and no birth to see the fathers
eyes..nose...for even with
same partners of sex if a child
arrives there is somewhere a
male...

contagion came to mind the
first time i read this....
there are so many now
from the lands of far
brought to the mainland
we venture further into the heart
of darkness with our wants
and needs and venture

i was born and adopted
my story was fraught
with much...and i questioned
why my mother at eighteen
did not abort me

i know women who aborted
and men who supported
this but it was the womens
decision by other women
at times to abort a child

always wondered about how
daring we men would be if
we had to remove something
from us.....cancer with us
or disfunction but not life
we carry it in us..on us..
our purpose is to work..
strife...take risks
live long enough

i have only heard another abstract
story as this poem before
a patient made friends
with a friend told her
his mother was abducted
by aliens..and he was removed
worked on a little and put back
in the womb again
peaceable enough peoples
those two

the freedom of originality for
that thought still makes me smile

after the explanations above
i get it.....before..not so...
as a write i thought it
interesting and came back\
to it when i saw it again

i think its pretty creative
its an exercise in writing
that makes one work hard
to describe in an abstract
manner an equally abstract
subject manner....

sextons work whom i like
is like this in places

and i want to write similarly
im just not at the complete
abstraction stage
such as this approach

thank you!

I appreciate you stopping by and offering your input. It is funny how you mention Sexton as it was you who lead me to her. From what I am told, I have always had a way with words. Word envy has been used often. Not saying by any means that I am an accomplished poet because that couldn't be further from the truth. But until I read Sexton, I could never truly describe my ideas in a manner that I cared for. I read a different way now because of her. I write in a different way now because of her. because of you.

thank you, Sir for your contribution.

Scott

Scott

author comment

without high school or friends of an upper challenge to intellect..class
etc i would not have gotten too much far....and it was my other then
ex...and back again old lady that got me introduced to the contacts
whom wrote her...the boxes of letters crafted..poems..sketches of
tatoos ideas..little home made portraits of her...then my ten days
off main floor and not on "protective custody" gave me great insight
of how life could have gone or been....

i have met many closed minds too.....people who have drive
and ideas.....they drop the shield of righteousness and denial
making their way....and they sometimes do well..

reading just finished up where my parents sisters and our
acess to comix and graphic novels and the graphic picture
novels of adults....dictionary bible....big deal i could articulate
but i didnt know everything and these smart people can read
me like i read them....heres a book..read this..heres a mag
read this....

then made parodies of stories...the strange wit and sarcasm

sextons books fascinated me
the way she wrote was impressive
joseph conrads detailing and duration
of focus...atwoods keen dialogues

mammals bring to us the new..the interesting..
a meteorite fell in quebec back in the early nineties
one spring....people saw it...a farmer out to do his
chores for his dairy cattle saw his crew of cows
excited....mingling waiting for him...he knows
animals like some people know people..
the cows walked him over to the object of
their concern....intelligence..and creative
intelligence is a gift..and a bane given
and the beauty of the creation...be
it poetry rocks or cows are dynamic
wonders that are shared by those
with interest...

sexton just wanted friends acceptance
of her fears....she didnt fight the
madness inherited or made
and reflections inside others didnt
set her off of what she feared inside
herself....

sharing...it works..
and im glad she shared her
gift..her talents she honed
then to get out there..

same with here...

love the comments
here...this part of this poetic
community i like the most
what i enjoyed about high school
and coffee shops

the intel thing..

automatically gives it a pro-life moral bias. That is why I never considered it a poem about abortion. Foetuses don't think and personifying them construes abortion as murder. You may not have considered it a moral poem, nonetheless you made it so.

If you wish to tackle such a subject, and why not? You may as well name it and open the debate. You say "At this point, no one is conveying to me exactly why they feel the poem is obscure". What do expect them to say? "I don't understand this because it says.." or "The poem is obscure because I don't understand it?" Some explanation was given through questions.

You seem more intent in arguing with the critique than acknowledging it and improving the poem.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

I expect them to say as Ian did above, how they specifically interpret the poem. Without knowing the context of how the language was read, how would one know how to reword/rework?

I am not arguing, please refer to the objective of the syllabus which encourages the poet to critique the critique and seek clarification where needed.

Your comments about point of view and moral bias are noted.

Thanks

Scott

Scott

author comment

Although I still find giving the foetus a voice objectionable, to say the least, it smacks of an "Anti Choice" stance. Foetuses do not have thoughts. The women who bear them do, and have their reasons.
I have always respected your poetry and intelligence.Your poem hit me in some hard places and I lost objectivity, which is to say it is better than I thought.
Here is my reading of it.
https://soundcloud.com/user536630132/tempestuous-by-eightmenout

Without the explanation I would not have realised its subject, the first line is ambiguous to say the least. It could easily refer to a "praying mantis" woman, devouring her mate, that you somehow escaped, though not unscathed.

I still don't get
"she tattled on me to my god". It somehow reminds me of Nick Caves memorable lyric "I don't believe in an interventionist god but I know you do."

However ambiguity is not a valid criticism of poetry, it is often an enhancement, cf Raj's complete re-reading of my poem "Inauthentic".

The reading aloud changed it all for me. So it sometimes goes. Despite my aforementioned ethical objections this is a fucking fine poem.

My apologies for my knee-jerk reaction, you could perhaps, if you were feeling generous, take it as a compliment.

As to constructive feedback and suggestions, I'm still at a loss. Perhaps it stands as it is. If you have a microphone, have a go at recording it in your own voice. It's not technically difficult.
http://soundcloud-download.com/

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

No apology necessary. You were just soaking your mind. In all honesty, I did take it as a compliment.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I didn't realize that there were anymore comments here. Don't always get updates or my phone reloads the page or something.

Appreciate you taking the time to come back and offer more input. As always, love hearing your voice trading my poetry.

Scott

Scott

author comment

suess would probably have issues as he had..
lewis caroll..dont let me start..

i wonder if my mother whom seemed to have had
a hate love relationship with whomever my father
was why in heavens name did she just not abort
me.....as the story goes...its bleak and dark
and i got saved in the nick of time....

i would have missed a lot of amazing things...
like a funeral if i did die amongst others and someone had noticed
and they had my remains...where now parents who plan their
lives..marriages careers can have a choice to see what
the sex of the child is..or the physical traits inherited
..the term changeling comes to mind
and really...in todays world....we all have great liberties
over times served for a type of crime that was an execution
less then sixty years ago with the hanging and electric
chair.....now ten served good behaviour and one can
like David from the good book serve the better purpose..
and families can build their model family if they wish..
in the past one had to dabble in the dark trade..now with
the tools of science a perfect kind of start can be envisioned
and acted upon.....what is the betterment for society then
to create a freedom and a liberterian kind of utopia before
the end arrives as it seems to be approaching...
a healthier society...

i was born a blemish...a marred output..
all the world would be is one less poet had i been
terminated

i like this kind of poem....it illicits such a response..
from me...

Thank you for sharing your responses. This world has no idea what it would be missing if it were minus one poet.

Scott

Scott

author comment

I am still working on the revisions to this one. Thanks Scott

Scott

author comment
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