Join the Neopoet online poetry workshop and community to improve as a writer, meet fellow poets, and showcase your work. Sign up, submit your poetry, and get started.

A Rhyming Sestina (theory of relativity workshop)

(in reference to ÇAÇÔ, Man of the Morning Star)

The strength of ideology as known
rests with the knowledge men shall seek a god.
A doctrine merely amplifies the tone
and makes a cult of anything so odd
as that which queerly contradicts one’s own,
for all else is to one’s belief a fraud.

But ere we speak of man’s inherent fraud
or all he trusts his ancestors have known,
let’s first address perspectives we can’t own
and ask what is the fervent creed of God.
The query may, of course, seem rather odd,
but after all, His doctrine is the tone.

Imagine first this “God” with lonesome tone
(and trusting He Himself shan’t answer fraud)
might pose a quandary autochthonic odd,
for with no point of reference it’s not known
by Providence the truth of what is God.
God has no mirror He may call His own.

What is it that Almighty God can own?
If He is every color, every tone,
then He knows not what is and isn’t God,
for anything beyond Him must be fraud.
I am not you and this I’ve always known,
a “Point of Reference” seeming never odd.

But such an attribution would be odd
for Him to note a soul that’s not His own.
Omnipotence means nothing is not known.
His color shows no contrast in its tone.
All things are God and all that’s not is fraud.
God is and God sees naught that isn’t God.

But back to man’s belief in what is God.
That we know naught of Him should not seem odd
nor should we note another’s faith as fraud.
For though mankind He seeming claims to own,
He knows not Self, His tinge is all one tone.
This then guides man’s belief of all that’s known.

I feel I’ve known there is but one true God.
He’s set the tone that makes me rather odd,
but though I own Him not, He seems no fraud.

Style / type: 
Structured: Western
Review Request (Intensity): 
I want the raw truth, feel free to knock me on my back
Review Request (Direction): 
What did you think of my title?
How was my language use?
What did you think of the rhythm or pattern or pacing?
How does this theme appeal to you?
How was the beginning/ending of the poem?
Is the internal logic consistent?
Last few words: 
This poem references a central tenet underlying my larger poem, "ÇAÇÔ, Man of the Morning Star". It is not necessarily what I believe, but rather a fictional construct to approach the personality of "God" who is a driving and primary character in the poem. Presenting the possibility that God is lonely and unsure of Himself would likely have been easier had I not chosen to use a classical form (the sestina), but that's not my style.
Editing stage: 

Comments

This resds more like an essay than a poem.

my critiques in this workshop are very harsh. I am telling you why I think they don;t work as poems, why they fail to enngage, immerse the reader.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

As aposed to the gooey stuff I write, this is the other end of the scale where the words and mixture of old ways and new just didn't work..
I love stories of the old times even going back beyond history, but this talks with an accent that loses me and maybe others..
I understand your words at each level but would have prefered that the language used was for everyone, we are now in 2013 and here today can't we speak of old times without returning to a way of talking that probably didn't exist.
I saw a film the other day the Oxford accent was appalling but the words could have been spoken in a common English accent and been better received.
These old ways of writing are late Victorian, but your story is from pre written history there needs to be a bridge some place,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

your comments compliment in a twisted sort of way. The poem was indeed written as an odd ball sort of "essay" in the pseudo 19th century way of using overbearing language to make one's point seem more relevant (like the recent Sea World commercials that I kind of like). A travelogue if you will.
I didn't really have a problem with whether it "connected" or not and truth told I had a problem choosing a poem to use. Any of my small poems either worked for me or were sooooo poorly constructed that they were not in danger of disconnection... they're just lousy poetry.
If I would seek to improve this it would be its clarity. The point is rather out of the box and it is hard to make sense of it. As far as being understood... I give myself a C+.
I better explain my queer point of view concerning my "character" of God in Caco much better in The Ana.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

If I'm not mistaken this is neither the beginning nor end of your epic. Thus it can hardly use either the beginning or ending to make a connection. As to imagery....well another strike I fear. I have no idea from this segment where or when the poem is taking place. So this leaves the substance or word usage. Now this segment when being read as part of the whole(wherein the reader has a chance to become familiar with the archaic language usage)would probably be fairly clear in its message. But in this stand alone form, the langusge use makes it hard for a casual reader to discern the message. Hence this snippet will give the rewriter plenty of lee way in changes. Were it me doing the edit, I would shorten the stanzas as the first step then go from there...............stan

language from someone who started reading Shakespear and Chaucer at the age of six and Keats at eleven!!
No offence is to be taken ((everyone including me)). I think what complicated this piece more is that the author is trying-in his search to find aboout "God", to follow a scientific way. For me it reads like trying to prove a theory (of course that's when I read it a couple of times but fast) which, again for me Rula, I have never liked the subject of proving theories when I was at school and this piece has failed in a way to engage me only because it reminded me of that difficult subject.I don't know if that makes any sense.
I think I have to agree with Stan that shortening the stanzas and lessen their number would help or would at least give your reader a chance for a more focused reading.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

I'm not a part of this workshop (sadly), but I found this poem engaging.

It's true that the language is difficult to follow, but he makes his arguments and point clear enough to me. Certain verses stand out to tie in the entire poem, like these

" for with no point of reference it’s not known
by Providence the truth of what is God.
God has no mirror He may call His own."

I'm actually interested in the subject of the poem, and the language did not prove too difficult to put me off.

And Jess, people do like to read about God. They just hate being indoctrinated.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

just smashing.
Just for fun (and I don't know if you've already done so) you can look into "The Ana", posted here. It is the Creation story for ÇAÇÔ, Man of the Morning Star and begins to describe the unigue character of "God" that permeates my Big Ass Poem.
That God is lonely is difficult to broach in a small poem, but it is one of three central tenets of my poem. If all things are God, then essentially God has no one to talk to, no one to relate to. That's a rather brutally simple way of putting it, but it explains why in Part Two the Clovis have done something so atrociously wrong that their mistake is actually putting Creation at risk (including God Himself) and when the Angel Host beg Him to save Reality... he hesitates. Thence when the circumstance again arises (as it will, of course) the reader knows that salvations is not a done deal.
God is suicidal.
None of this coincides with my personal beliefs, but I do think (if I may say so myself) that it makes for some seriously twisted fiction.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I like the title. I love the use of God in poetry. It gives what is written a sense purity. I like the use of the word "odd" throughout the poem. I think that this poem has a strong core, and the last few verses were very powerful, yet gentle.

The Unknown Poet

Make a donation we can't stay without poets like you.

perhaps overkill?
All gods die as new ones come along. Zeus, Odin, Jesus, Allah

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

not overkill. The form required it.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

The poem fails to engage me in the respect that it is not nearly broad enough when it comes to describing an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being. It feels too close to core beliefs. S2 calls for one to address perspectives. The perspectives here seem limited and the imagination stifled with regards to the infinite possibilities/explanations of such a powerful entity. If ever there was a time to step out of the box, this would be it.

I only had one issue with regards to language. Not only is the word "God" used frequently, but there is an abundance of He, His, Himself, etc. For me it broke the flow and felt like I was being forced into offering respect to an entity that was not clearly brought into focus. I see your clarification that the form required it. I would need to discuss this in more depth if I am to accept that premise.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

part of the early line. The others, not so much. You do see my original complaint. I had a very unique perspective to offer (out of the box, of the beaten...) and I did not use it to the fullest.
Any suggestions?
This is related to my big poem and will likely be incorporated in the tale somewhere down the road, so I WOULD like to succeed more aptly in clarifying the odd perspective.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

It seems that you have chosen to stick with the version of god in the traditional christian sense. But there are any number of religious and spiritual beliefs out there which differ. Ex. the Lakota believe in spirits. Spirits for weather, hunting, war, etc. They also believe in the spirits ability to change form (shapeshifting). I know I am being a little loose here with my definition, but just trying to illustrate the point that you can take your description anywhere and make it as vivid and eclectic as you choose.

You mentioned cults in S1. There are a great many of these to work with as well. Stop and think about all of the different options here as well as above, blend them all together and see where it takes your mind. A spiritual ah-ha awaits you.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

The God character follows Judaic/Christian/Muslim tradition (with a fair bit of Norse and Greek mythology thrown in) for two reasons. One, it is the tradition I am most familiar with. Having a spent a great deal of time researching the religions of the world I am still a Western European and drawing on those stories is easier. Second, the poem is a loose attempt to mimic (with a modern twist and/or feel to it) the French geste. Even after eight years of work on this poem, if I were given the opportunity to begin again (and with some 24,000 lines of polished draft commited... there is no way in Hell I'm starting over) I would choose still the direction I set out in originally even though I have so changed as a poet that (as you mentioned) there are innumerable ways open to me now.
I still like the feel of the Anglo-Saxon adventure story.
The tale abuses the legends mightily. Angels are responsible for the creation of Man. God is lonely. The Essence of Reality is not only represented in the Tree of Life, but imbued with it that when the Clovis steal it and find they cannot glean its secrets instantly, they attempt to destroy it only to discover that all Reality is dying with it... including God.
So I am not held back by "traditon" or an overweaning sense of respect for the mythology involved not to use it as I see fit.
The perspectives addressed in the poem above are too basic and simple to express the theater involved in the Big Ass Poem (BAP) poem.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Sounds like i need to read the big ass poem

Scott

when people reference a none existent daddy in the sky.

Sure, in ancient forms, they were acceptable, but we have science now.

This is where your poetry fails. You seem to want to recreate a past that you simply have no need to do.

Reference people to the great poems themselves, instead of failing to re-create them.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

(c) Neopoet.com. No copyright is claimed by Neopoet to original member content.