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The Antithesis

The difference ‘twixt the comment and critique
is thought by some as trivial at best.
Both natterings delivered with some cheek
comparing hard won art to all the rest.

Midmost though there’s abundance to be found.
The difference ‘twixt the comment and critique
presents a bifurcation nigh profound,
for one is depth, the other rather weak.

A comment is didactics dealt oblique.
A self indulgent practice that inflates
the difference ‘twixt the comment and critique.
Analysis, our skill and ken donates.

Opinions allocated for no cause
are aids, but teach me nothing that I seek.
So ponder then, the next time pen takes pause,
the difference ‘twixt the comment and critique.

Style / type: 
Structured: Western
Review Request (Intensity): 
I want the raw truth, feel free to knock me on my back
Review Request (Direction): 
What did you think of my title?
How was my language use?
What did you think of the rhythm or pattern or pacing?
How does this theme appeal to you?
How was the beginning/ending of the poem?
Is the internal logic consistent?
Last few words: 
This is my quatern Judy. I thought I would make a mild political comment at the same time.
Editing stage: 

Comments

as most verses are in iambic, I thought I’d tell you those I find not, just in case you didn’t mean to mix the meter

a fun write –with a good little message

lol - imo that is

love judy
xxx

is thought | by some | as triv ial | at best.

 Both natt | er ings de | liv ered with | some cheek

 com par | ing hard | won art | to all | the rest.

 Mid most | though there’s | a bund | ance to be | found.

are aids, | but teach | me noth | ing that|  I seek.

:)

i almost forgot to say - i love the decending line, but (lol as with my 'andante')
 - 'The diff 'rence ‘twixt the com -ment and crit -ique'

xx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Uses the repeated line very effectively and cleverly. I thoroughly applaud the content, of course.

I've developed an allergy to parsing, each time I try I get a nasty little rash. Lucky Judyanne is so adept. The mixed meter still scans pretty well though, nothing jars badly to my ear.

cheers,
Jess
Everything changes bar one. Neopoet's 'Prime Directive'-
"Critique don't comment".
https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

Judy, I think a lot of what you hear as not iambic are simply a collection of pyrrhic or spondaic feet that could go either way. It then depends on how you particularly would stress them. For example- "midmost" is two words commonly combined and is appropriate stressed on either syllable, though I have heard it pronounced more often with a stress on the second.
I think it comes down to what I tried to explain to Rula the other day. There are any number of ways to scan any sentence. If you can find one and only one way it is probably bordering on "sing-son" (not a bad thing always), a couple of variations and you likely have natural English, while multiple choices of how to scan the thing means you've probably written something rather choppy.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

I agree with you wes,

but only when one is not chasing pure meter – you are talking about close transitions that get lost in the poem as the reader keeps rhythm. But on first read by a new reader, these can be obviously out of scansion, only they don't cause a jarring effect that bad meter would

One can’t really get away with overstressing a syllable that is not supposed to be stressed.

I also disagree with you re 'if you can find one and only one way it is probably bordering on sing-song'. I believe this is not noticed in good meter - especially good iambic pentameter - best example shakespeare’s sonnet no 18 perhaps… not sing-songy to my ears anyway.

but that's the catch isn't it - it has to be good

okay, lol, I’ll let you get away with most of the verses as this isn't a strict form as a sonnet would be (and, as jess says, they do transition well) but we can't call them iambic

‘Midmost though there’s abundance to be found’ - I have never heard midmost – and my dictionary stresses it midmost, and then ‘there’s a bund ance to be found’ ... well...

 and ‘A self-indulgent practice that inflates’ - I cannot agree with stressing ‘that’

'O - pin |  ions all | o ca | ted for | no cause'  - sorry

be honest – read them as sentences, not with poetic rhythm –

since it is all for fun though, for the exercise I’ll let you get away with these too – but you have to admit they are not iambic

love the write regardless
love judy
xxx

 

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

I enjoyed this intellectually and sonically, as for scansion, a poem sets up the rhythm in the first S and the reader naturally follows this into the next Ss. I read this aloud and the rhythm carried me along without any stumbles. I love seeing Judyanne's analysis, (even if I disagree) its made me rethink verse and how it works.
Sorry there's nothing here to 'tear apart' except using archaic words like 'twixt' may subconsiously make you think in old fashioned word forms, its a problem because most great verse is from bygone eras.
kind regards
ross

Your words to Wesley about using, quote:- archaic words like 'twixt' may subconsciously make you think in old fashioned word forms, its a problem because most great verse is from bygone eras.

Now you have put me into an era that you say is gone, I shall become invisible and wend my way away.
I am originally from Wiltshire in the south of England, Tis, Twas, and Twere, Twixt and many of these words, are still used in the speech of my home county.
That I speak with little of that accent now is purely because I have been in the Royal Air Force and travelled around a lot. but if I am speaking to my kin, I revert back to using those words in normal speech..
I am not sure if you have visited us here in the old country as a lot of folk call it, but we still retain about 39 different accents in England alone,
I find that the use of some words as you say may sound archaic to you and from the old days, but to quite a few it is the way they still speak.
I think that Wesley is in retrospect using them as a link to the old way and not modern speech so we will have to have a talk on this sometime.
Maybe you could start a Blog or something talking about aspects of speech and their use in poetic works?????
Take care of you, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Here we have a great example of learned poets talking among themselves.
Your use of some words will lose most young poets, you all rattle on in your educated way, I am not part of this workshop, but can I say that what all of you are saying, is teaching the teachers and not the students.
If I walked into a class to learn basic science and the teacher started talking about quantum physics, then I would be at a total loss.
The four of you are our best, or can be our best teachers, so please for the sake of teaching the beginner, "teach" there is no need for you four to dissect your own works, we rely on you to progress Neopoet to a very high standing, and standing in a corner talking among yourselves will not do this.
Yours, hiding in his dark room, Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

i for one do not consider myself 'learned' in poetry
i may be running the odd workshop, but that doesn't mean that i am not learning with everybody else in those workshops

and i think that if people follow discussions about poetry, even if they don't contribute to the discussion, they still will learn

i find it hard to understand your attitude - what do you think we should be talking about when reviewing each other's poetry?

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

with Ephraim Crud, Ian. Enjoy the wilful ignorance in your dark room. There is no objection or problem for most people in picking up a bit of basic terminology to learn the craft.

You told me recently you had beaten you block with understanding meter. Now work on your block around terminology, it has all been explained many times before and your own A-Z blog should help.

cheers,
Jess
Everything changes bar one. Neopoet's 'Prime Directive'-
"Critique don't comment".
https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

I am going on a trip to the Norfolk broads to seek out Ephraim, to see if we are similar in attitude and comments to Neopoet's people.
I shall dwell on the point you have made about wilful ignorance, now that can join the label "plagiarism" that cropped up a few weeks ago.
I was trying to debate outside of the workshop, that using the poem as an example for learning along with it's comment and analysis by Judy, Yourself, Ross, and the replies by Wesley was a useful tool to teach people with.
Not just here but as a permanent type of form talk..
Anyone can look up words on the net, but here you four have described what the insides and outsides of the piece that Wesley wrote, this discussion you will not get anywhere else.
I will leave the rest up to your joint appraisal, Go well my friend will speak to you soon,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

A well thought out, and presented piece of writing, these pieces should be used, with the comments, as a teaching aid to the Neo Poets that are starting out.
Though it would need a little simplification of the language that is sometimes used.
As Neopoet is a workshop to teach, then this could be a start on teaching this form of writing..
We really need a notice board for teaching, so that this type of example can be used, instead of being an entry to the workshop that is running, where IMO it is to complex for the beginners.
It would be as an example.
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

the 'teaching', as you call it, is on the workshop page itself.

if people read the syllabus and the exercises, then they should have no trouble keeping up with the practice poems and the critiques applied to them

and everyone is free to pose questions

love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

Yes I know that the workshop is laid out on your workshop page and all the necessary things to do,
I was just saying that the above writes by you all, is probably above the heads of the main workshop students, and could be used as a teaching tool and not just as a talk twix the teachers.
We are privileged in a way that we have so many good teachers as yourself, but to congregate in one spot teaching each other is that needed ???
Just my thoughts, You take care and good luck with the workshop, I do read the pieces and learn, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

If not the workshop archives
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/find/archive
and your own A-Z blog of poetry terms should help.

cheers,
Jess
Everything changes bar one. Neopoet's 'Prime Directive'-
"Critique don't comment".
https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

i can't help who joins the workshops - as far as i can tell, those that join do so to improve their knowledge, and workshop leaders are just as keen to widen their experience as anyone

as for 'teachers standing in the corner discussing the poetry' - lol - there is no corner here - we are out in the open for anyone to read and follow the discussion, and ask questions and contribute themselves if they wish

it seems to me that not too many people are interested, as it does seem to be the same people who participate in every shop

i don't know what can be done about that

i introduced this shop and stipulated that people could come and go as they pleased and join in when they saw a form that interested them and they might like to try...

i hoped that this would draw in a few more people as it is a small committment only - one form of poetry introduced each week gives those interested plenty of time to try it

would love you to join
love judy
xxx

'Each for the joy of the working, and each, in his separate star,
shall draw the Thing as he sees It, for the God of Things as They are.'
(Rudyard Kipling)

The site was down (out here only?) or I would have commented (no, wait... critiqued) earlier.
Careful with your spelling Ian. " 'twixt" is a contraction of "betwixt" and requires the second "t". However, I agree with you here that 'twixt is not archaic. I saw it used in a recent article in Time magazine, so someone thinks it common usage. Also, if one considers that the most archaic terminology I use, then one has not read my poetry. "Wyvern" for "Monster" and such.

Ross, thank you for your input. Coming from such as you, it is particularly pleasing. These smaller pieces of mine don't get the same sort of attention my larger works do, so I'm not as satisfied with them. That you could say positive things about them bolsters my attitude.

Jess, it always brightens my day when you think I have succeeded. I sure wish you would write more yourself though.
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

and I am really sorry for giving a belated reply to this great piece. (I can't remember I read anything from your pen and I didn't open my mouth with a big WoW , honestly)
but for this , as I am supposed - according to Neopoet's nature, I should give a suggestion to improve and your theme came to stress and put an extra burden on my shoulders to do so ,but I can't think of anything especially re the content .
I only find it elegant and with a great message too!
Thanks for sharing.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Don't feel you are ever late for anything. You are always very prompt with all of your discussions. I do expect (as a member of Storytelling) that you will read my recent essay and offer your thoughts on the subject.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

There is some good advice there, I really loved the poem I have been reading through your poems and found this one I had to comment lol

Well done :)

love JC xxx

("Always and Forever") - (Never lose a holy curiosity.-Albert Einstein)

than having one's poetry being sought out.
Thank you for making my day.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

author comment

Well I have little enough technical expertise. So I'll not Get technical lol. But 1st line of 2nd stanza seems a bit convoluted to me. Took me 3 reads to figure out your intent. I liked your use of "ken". Besides myself I think this is the first time I've seen its use on site (I now await a barrage of people telling me where They used it). 1st line last stanza. Try replacing "for" with "with"........with -with- withwith......sounds like a bird call...................stan

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