You have a great group of moderators with you, success to you and your moderators.

Eddie C.

Mona

this will be a first for me lol, not sure if I will be up to it but
I will do my best see ye all there ,,,,,,,,,,,ziggy

Zigs,

before the launch you are attending 'confidence' training...I am running it and I have my whip!...but not in a kinky way!

LOL!

HS

Does my writing qualify for this pool?

China and I will be on the look out.

Mona

and you have structured it well.

Between this, shark pool and splash Neopoet will become so much more what it is meant to be.

Best wishes,

I believe Jess to be right, the idea is to be able to critique everyone and anyone with out it being a problem, because we all know that there are groups here that don't critique everyone,
I believe that this is a smashing idea to bring the whole site together without all the pull and tug.
My intention is to have those in splash pool move on to the next level of critique. if I'm successful chrys they wiil be going to you next, so please help by sending me all the new people to the site, I feel that my level is the introduction to this site, and it's power of critique.

regards,
Eddie

Just let us know when and what to do and I will start. I promise I will do my best and if by chance I have down time from the procedures I am having done I will still make a concerted effort to stick with you in your pool. Ian will be bringing the iced tea..:) Where did Stan go anyway. He was supposed to bring the chips:)

Have a great day
Ms Mona

#1: I guess, basically, pointing attention towards what stands out to me as being rougher edges. Places where the author could "better" their work. Or has, perhaps, simply lacked an outside opinion to see it in the first place.

#2: In short, yes. I do think it's quite important what type of critique the author requests. Not everyone is always capable of taking the straight truth about something, and actually turning that into something positive from which they can learn.
Seeing as we don't always know what's going on in the author's life, or what inspired the poem; cracking down on something that stems from traumatic personal events can only do more harm than good. That's why I think it's important to respect it on principle.

#3: If I find nothing else to say, yes. I'd rather comment if I truly liked a poem, and let them know I read it, and appreciated it. They'll never know you did, if you don't say anything.
That said, I think everyone would appreciated a bit more than a one-liner reply. For instance, if you can't think of anything constructive, then perhaps just say which part stood out to you especially.

#4: No critique - no objective opinion. No objective opinion - and it takes a hell of a lot longer to learn. We are here to grow in our art, and without each other's input, we might as well just keep our work to ourself. So I think it's important to either let someone know when they're doing something in a manner which they could improve upon. Or just letting them know that they're doing something right.

#5: I do think every author has their own style, this is an obvious assumption, of course. But my meaning is, that every other author that reads a poem, will inevitably find something they would have done differently. And it isn't always even to make the poem better as a whole, but making it more to their liking. It is the same to say that music I find beautiful would be like a cat in heat to someone else. So in that sense then, I think it becomes less about the poem, and more about the author's personal style. Which then translates to critiquing him.
Not to mention the various slurs one can throw needlessly, but I would hope the people on this site is a bit above that. Or a LOT above that. You don't need to fly into someone's character because you don't like what they wrote.
When it's merely about how the poem reads though. Or some things that make sense in the writer's head, but not to the reader; then I think the critique is completely about the poem. Completely justified, and something that should be welcomed.
Veering from a metre, for instance, if you use one. A line that doesn't quite rhyme, when it should. A title that has absolutely no appeal, or any link with the poem's core, or theme. Even losing track of the theme itself. These are all good examples of what would pertain to critiquing a poem, and not the author.

1. My idea of a critique is to read the poem as many times as it takes to get the full flavor of the poem. Then to offer suggestions on my idea of how to make the poem better, if any. And finally to tell them what I liked about the piece. I quote back lines or verses that particularly appealed to me.
2. I feel that the authors request on the level of critique is very important, I try to keep from getting too in-depth when dealing with the sensitive request.
3. I don’t feel it is enough JUST to say, “nice work” etc. I usually offer a quote of lines on what I liked and sometimes, when it is warranted, I quote lines which I feel need polishing or rewording. I offer suggestions where I feel I can be helpful.
4. I give critiques in hopes that they will be beneficial to the poets work and experience at Neo Poet.
5. I do know the difference between critiquing the poem and not the poet. In my opinion, there is no room for getting negatively involved with the poet as a person.

Chrys:

1. A critique for me is a detailed analysis of a written piece. taking into account the theme, structure, flow, style and meaning.

I feel a critique should have a balance of good points and bad points. Each point should be backed up with examples and explanation of how I came to the points I made.

I always remember there is an idividual behind the poem and that the comments made should be constructive and not an opportunity to belittle the writer.

Suggestions on improving should be made if applicable, but not a complete re-write. Just examples of potential improvments.

The whole point of a critique is to help the author to improve.

2. I absolutely believe the authors request for level of feedback should be taken into account and not overlooked. If the poem has major errors and needs a lot of work, I would PM them to discuss and explain that a more detailed critique would be useful.

3. Nice work/good poem etc...is not sufficient on there own. The comments need to be constructive and an explanation made as to why you liked the poem etc. The critiquer should also be prepared to back up their comments, allowing the author to commence a dialogue with the critiquer and turn the critique into a discussion.

4. If you want to help fellow poets and also learn yourself, then offering a critique is important for both author and critiquer. If you don't want to critique, but just post your work, then that is fine...just not at Neo. We are a workshop and the whole point of being here is to help us all grow as writers.

5. Yes - having a been a recipient of both, I know what the difference is.

regards,

HS

) what is your idea of a critique?,,,,,,I guess different poets commenting on a certain piece will see different things depending on their level of experience and own style, and sometimes as a writer receiving critique it is not enough to just hear certain suggestions from one person, it needs to be backed up by someone else who would agree as to let the writer know the possible changes are felt by others also I think.
and we all know critique needs to be balanced, some writes for me need a few reads before commenting,
it can only help if on reading if the reader knows the writers style as to be on the same wavelength as the writer, Authors request for level of feedback should be taken into account,,,,yes of course but I think any suggestions are better for all if they are not done by pm, I have been guilty of that in the past but I don't really do that any more
as I am more comfortable with receiving suggestions on stream, I feel if less writes were posted completely
polished it might be more beneficial to others at lest some of the time,,,,,,,

1) A critique is a way to aid an author in improving thier writing, by making making suggestions about how they might improve thier work. When you critique it's important to explain why something works or does not work.

2) I think that you should respect the authors wishes.

3) It isn't enough to say good job, because that does'nt help the author improve. On other hand if you feel that the poem does not need to be improved it is ok to say so, although that is a comment rather than a critique.

4) You give a critique as a way of helping someone else.

5) If you critique a person you are commenting on or critisizing thier choice of theme, or style or maybe making a personal remark and that is not what a critique is for. But if you critique the poem you can suggest different ways to improve the word choice, metre, or maybe where they might rhyme something.

Lou

Do I understand correctly that all participants of all three workshops have the opportunity to critique the poems selected & offered to the workshop for the workshop experience?

That would make sense, as one can see the graduation (if any) on the level of critique from splash to olympic to shark.

?

I could not find "stream of unconsciousness*, Chrys.

?

~A

Every line starts with I but the one line Why can't I turn this around? You can turn this around and make this stand out better with some work. I realize this is first person and you even state I seems a little selfish but you have too many I's in this.

To me it reads more of a statement then it does a poetic write. You can work this out with omitting so many I's without taking your meaning away from it. It does speak of how you feel on a personal level and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is too many I's in it. It would be nice to see you work this out without losing your meaning and this is only my suggestion since you asked for raw truth.

You may concentrate on removing so many I's and see what you can do with it to improve cadence and flow.

Olympic Workshop Critique

Mona

Bloody hell, man! I don't smoke, and even I need a cigarette now!
Anyway...
My poem of choice was "Waiting", by Ayaz Warith. So feel free to go and check out what I said, and tell me if any of that made ANY sense at all to any of you.

COFFEE!

Waldo

1) what is your idea of a critque?
Good criticism should always be positive, even when the poetry is worse than bad. Bad poetry can always be improved upon, if its author so desires, and being positive about what someone is writing is, imo, the best way to point an author whose work needs improvement in the right direction. I always try to start with something positive, explaining why I like what I'm reading. If I can't find something positive to say, then the poem is going to just be awful, but even then politemess and positiveness should be used in the criticism. The point of the exercise is to engage the author in a process of improvement, not make him or her flee in terror!

2)Do you feel the authors request is important( Raw truth, moderate, etc)
Yes I do. I tend not to comment on poems whose authors do not want the raw truth, however, as I find that most of these authors don't really want to change their poem, of think about improving.

3) Do you feel it is enough to say, "nice work" or good poem,or I liked it?
If the poem is good enough not to warrant any negative or constructive criticism - which is a completely subjective thing - then I think its all right to give some praise. Positive re-inforcement is a good thing, and will often make an author more open to listening to real criticism later on, on another of her or his works.

4) why bother giving a critique?
How else can poets improve their skills, except by getting feedback from readers and fellow poets, in the form of criticism?

5) IMPORTANT!!!! Do you know the difference between critiquing a poem and critiquing the author?
LOL

"I think your poem is not up to your usual standards." - critiquing the poem

"I think you're an idiot if you believe this so-called poem is as good as your others" - critiquing the author

Critiquing the author is counter-productive; it causes emotional upset, anger, and most importantly it polarizes opinion between author and reader to the point where they refuse to deal with each other - completely negating what Neopoet is about.

I enjoyed the feel of this poem, it has an anger and desperation that I like. In general I like the pace and flow of it as well.
Where this poem falls short is imo in it's repetition of hurt, which becomes stale very quickly, and in its overbearing use of the first person singular. The repetition makes the poem read as unsophisticated and naive, as if it were written by a teenager, and the constant use of "I" serves only to make me feel that the author cares little for what readers get from the poem. At the end of the poem I felt no real sympathy for the author, and little empathy, because I felt that the author was simply trying to portray his or herself as a victim of life, and not it's circumstances.
This problem is a common one. I often find it in my own new poems, before the first edit. It is rectified by rewriting the piece to remove as many references to oneself as possible, and adding some objectivity, instead of concentrating on self.

by Poetree

http://new.neopoet.com/node/4146

Critique:

Hi Poetree,

I really enjoyed this little poem of yours, I found it
sad and painfully true, and I really enjoyed how much you
said about the person this poem is about with so few words.

I do feel that there are some ideas that would make your
poem even better than it already is, however.

First, I would break the first line into two, between
"him" and "with", and remove the word "their"
altogether. For me, this would focus on "They assasinate him",
giving its meaning much more force. "Their" is uneccessary, since
you've already established who's doing the assassinating ("They").

Second, tying in with the word "their", there are other
extra words in the poem that imo you honestly do not need.
For instance "of" in the second line, and "And" in the ninth line.
Removing extra words is always a challenge! I often find myself '
leaving them in, on a first edit. But try it, and I think you'll find
that this improves the cadence of your poem.

Lastly, I kept wanting to read "Apprearance Is Everything" as
"Appearances Are Everything". Using the plural would really help
the pace and flow of the last line, which feels a little choppy to me.

I do like this one, and I hope this helps.

Dear Chrys,

Could you please define the moderators job. I am very unclear on what I am supposed to be doing. Maybe the others are confused, as well. So could you give an example of a moderators contribution? Sorry to be a pain in the butt, but I am frustrated by my own ineptitude.

always, Cat

And sorry I haven't been overly active here, I've just had a bit busy week so far. But I shall make an effort.

Now. I don't think it's a waste of effort in any sense to critique something and get no response. It's not very courteous, of course; but I should hope that even if they're there for the bragging rights, that they'll see your comment anyway. But that's my optimistic side.
My old, crabby, and poke-you-with-a-stick side, would say that you should not ask for something if you're not willing to receive it. Or even at least make the small amount of effort it takes to actually answer someone, and say thank you, or that you'll consider the very bad idea they just had.

Which coincidentally, or not, agrees with my answer for question #2 as well. If you are not prepared to receive and answer, don't ask a question. Or an opinion. Or any advice.
Advice isn't always nice to hear. Be careful. But in my experience, it's the advice that isn't so nice to hear that often-times proves to be the best.

And, #1, once advice is given, and heard, and taken, then the ball is in the other person's court. Everything is a choice, after all. A man won't change for the better if he doesn't make the choice to do so. An alcoholic never quit because another person forced their opinion down their throat.
So even though it's sometimes not so nice to see, there's no use getting irate about it. And if you didn't like the opinion you got on your poem, and the advice for changes, then just say so. Nicely, of course. Don't be rude! We'll not have any disrespect in this classroom.
But it won't help anyone to dance around the subject and never say it outright. Just say: "I thank you for your comment, but I shan't be using it today. Au revoir."

Yours

Waldo

Here is my selection and if I am getting too heads far in this I will slow it down. However this one was my choice for today:

Eddie
Here is just my crit or suggests as I got your message in the whole write and maybe just tripped me up a little here and there

If love is a passing wind (If love is the passing of winds) or wind
that blows through the trees, (blowing through the trees)
the songs it sings
would sound as lovely hymns (a sound of a lovely hymn)

Like the birth (Like a new birth)
of the morning sun
bringing light upon our world, (spreading light upon our world)
or rain that gives life to the earth ( or the rain that gives life to the earth)

Love is the fertile soil
that is in our hearts,
A place to plant a seed
growing true and loyal ( to grow so true and loyal)

You will have the rains of May
so as to drink (of the cool waters)
giving the strength
to start another day, ( to begin another day)

I will whisper sweet words
on the petals of your ears (in the petals of your ears)
which is only sung
by heavens love birds

Our love will bloom
and the best threads of us (for the best threads of us) threads is iffy to me at the moment..
we’ll weave on the wheel
of our love loom (of our loves loom) or maybe bloom

Olympic Pool Critique

Eddie

This is just my fast track and I believe it could use just a tad of shortening and some lard...lol
No in all seriousness I captured your heart and soul in this and it is a sweet poetic write. If none of my suggests do not work for you it is aokay.

Love
Ms Mona

I like the title very much, makes you want to read the poem. there just needs to be a few tweaks, to make it more effective.

I find that there is too much repeatition, in this poem. The vocabulary needs to be more varied, to aid in making it a more expressive poem. Maybe ' I have a voice to be heard, a heart that is easy to hurt. You could say i wish and I want just once at the start of the relivent Stanza.

Lou

.

My posted opinion:

And thank you for a good write.

I don't have any critique as such, only a few suggestions, if that's alright. Even though I see you're not currently editing this particular work, I've just made a few changes that seemed to compliment the flow of the poem more.

"They assassinate him with their piercing eyes and pointing fingers,

Yet he walks on by with his head held high, (I've added "yet" here at the start. It softens the break)
As I ache for him.

If only they knew of his heart so kind,
His bright light,
His peaceful mind. ("And" seemed superfluous here, and gives it a quicker cadence than the rest)
But they don’t look into him,
They don’t like what they see,
And after all,
As things do go; (And here it felt like it needed a line. This simply popped to mind.)
Appearance is everything."

But it's a good write. There's nothing much I can add, or take away.

Yours

Waldo

P.s. I just copied it directly from where I commented on his poem. So do forgive any irregularities.

Appearance Is Everything
Submitted by Poetree on 1:03 pm, 17 May 2011

http://new.neopoet.com/node/4146#comment-36399

They assassinate him with their piercing eyes and pointing fingers,
He walks on by with his head held high,
As I ache for him.
If only they knew of his heart so kind,
His bright light,
And his peaceful mind.
But they don't look into him,
They don't like what they see,
And after all;
Appearance is everything.
My critique:
Candlewitch
8:59 am, 19 May 2011
new

Dear Poetree,
Hello. May I first say that I like your title and the subject matter is easily identified with. I don't know anyone who hasn't been judged by their looks at one time or another. I came to this piece late, so there is little for me to suggest that the others have not.

My only suggestions are; in these lines:
And his peaceful mind.
I would remove "And" (His peaceful mind)
as I would also remove the "And" in this line:
And after all; (After all;)

I think it sounds better without it, but that is my opinion and only a suggestion.
I like the way you bring it together with these lines:

But they don't look into him,
They don't like what they see,
And after all;
Appearance is everything.
Good work on a seldom written about issue!
always, Cat

I read the poem a few times.
I speak the poem aloud a few times.
I edit for spelling and, to some extent, grammer, although grammer can be fast and loose in poetry, sometimes. A line either works or it doesn't.
I ask myself how much I liked the poem, how much I enjoyed reading it.
I ask myself how I liked the cadence and pace of the poem, and where it stumbles.
I think about how the poem made me feel, what emotions it engendered in me.
Then I write my comments and critique.
If this process seems a little lengthy, well, it can be, depending on the complexity of the poem, its length, and content.

Not that I've done this extensively. I'm still trying out a lot of things. But what I tried yesterday, and which seemed to work, is to bring myself in a very relaxed state. Copy the poem into Word, and then just read through it aloud a few times. Listening to how I think the author might have said it. And, in doing so, paying attention to the rhythm, as well as to how it affects me personally. What emotions it raises, and thoughts it conjures. And, in the end, I hopefully don't get an answer at all, as to something that seems off about the poem. But if I do, I suppose I just try to imagine how I can keep the poem's essence while making the minor adjustments that seem necessary.

I've just a thing about treading lightly around giving advice; it's something I weigh quite carefully. So I think I prefer to take my time with it.

And that's what I've learned so far:)

Yours

Waldo

1. I check to see what the poet is looking for in a critique. Such as, what did you think of my title, etc. I notice what level of critique is called for, such as "raw truth" or "sensitive".

2. I read the poem as many times as it takes to understand the content and flavor of the piece.

3. I make suggestions to the poet on what I think should be changed, or what lines I think need attention. I try to be as clear in my suggestions as possible. I let the poet know that it is only my opinion, that the final say up to them.

4. I pick out lines that I especially liked and quote them. I usually say these lines appealed to me.

5. I encourage the writer to keep writing,

(Cat)

hi there

judge not and be not judged is how this one reads to me
I do like the opening line as it sets the tone through out the read
I see your not activity editing this one or do you intend to take
any changes on board at this time ?.
having said that the only thing that stands out to me is the following
"But they don't look into him,
They don't like what they see,,,,,,,,,,,it seems to read a tad better like this to me,

They don't like what they see
so they don't look into him ,,,,,,,,,,,, just a passing observation and just my slant on this
"And his peaceful mind." I would remove the "and",,,,,,,,, for sake of the flow to the reader,,,,,
would also remove the next "and " for the same reason ,
I found the theme interesting and not one that gets wrote on much cheers for the post ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,zigs

I salute anyone who breaks the rules in the interest of art and great poetry writing just as much as I admire poets who craft meter and verse within the confines of good grammar. Walk the tight rope or jump from it and see if you can fly.

Great suggestion Waldo
Here are some of the methods I use to critique.

1. If I intend to help another authors poem and I feel it I read it aloud first. If something stumbles for me, I may print it out and take it to my porch to work on it. I will then make my suggestions on my printed page of the author’s poem.

2. I will then read it aloud maybe more than a second time with my additions or omissions and then present it back to the author for their perusal.

3. I have to admit this I am a nitpicker when it comes to spelling. Grammar and punctuation use in any written words. I respect those that do not agree to use proper punctuation as each author has their right to not use it.

4. I always put the authors write into perspective and go with my best instinct on how to review or make suggestions. One thing that I have not did is to critique a poem that I feel is so mixed up and reads horribly that I do not feel it is of my better judgment to continue to comment. On the other hand, I want to venture again in trying to critique a poem that is written so badly without any hesitation and never to insult the writer. It is neither my intent to make fun or a negative remark on such writes. I can remember commenting on a poem that was so misunderstood and poor writing and the person was not happy with what I said and used my critique as an attack instead of a help.

5. I tend to stray from writers that do not want to accept or acknowledge any help in the workshop arena and only accept critiques on their work and NEVER critique anyone else’s work. I think this is a self-satisfying author that is not giving unto other writers their critiques or suggestions and is only pronouncing their work to get feedback only.

6. Again, I have to feel something in the poem and I look for the image and vision it gives me in my mind. When someone has written something that either has touched me in some way or I feel it strongly what I have just read I will comment as such.

Endnote

I never thought I would ever comment on or make suggestions to anyone’s written word when I first started to write. This is a big thing that I have learned here in this site. I branched out to critique and took my chances at it first, it was rather cumbersome for me and with practice and more practice I do not hesitate to offer up my ways to make the poetic or written word improve, After all it is the author’s prerogative to add or subtract or completely deny any suggestions that are made. I always leave that up to the writer and never feel any slight if they do not use any suggestions.

I want to thank Chyrs for her ability to teach this class and I admire her dedication over the years here at Neopoet. Also in and of her own ability to share with us how to better our ways of critiquing. As each writer is different in their own way of critiquing and writing, I acknowledge the uniqueness of the critiquer’s wish to critique a poem, as long as they do not veer into critiquing the person. This I have seen is not of usefulness to the writer or the critiquer in my opinion. I have to say that is what I have learned thus far in this site and hopefully and willingly advance my skills with the help from all of you.

Mona Magics

What do you do when someone attacks you persoanlly, and not your poem? How do you react to such an attack? How does it make you feel, and how would you respond?

Good topic and I shall take my time with this one as I have already bookmarked your questions in my Word. CHina you have a great weekend and I have some questions to add to the workshop but will do so after I answer Jim's. And so far I am believing this workshop to be very beneficial to all of us. You are doing a great job and no more brownies to give. :) Everyone have a great weekend.

What do you do when someone attacks you personally, and not your poem? How do you react to such an attack? How does it make you feel, and how would you respond?

I will try not to be so long winded with this one since I have been commenting on these things on site as of late.

1. I make note of it with the person and try to get them to focus back on the poem. Sometimes it is not even on my poem that I receive what you all calling it an attack. It is usually when I made reference on someone else’s poem or written article

2. How do you react to such an attack? Sometimes my reaction can be different to what I call an attack. If someone is blatantly calling me names or telling me to go fu off then I may either do one or two things. Tell them to back off or simply ignore them. When a person has to defend their self repeatedly, it creates animosity and bad moral. It gets old. It does not seem that all parties are willing to take a chill out time and collaborate in a more meaningful way. I have been guilty of this my own self. Therefore, I react either way with my remarks or my non-remarks. I am not one to play come here kitty I got something for you. No more games I like to play.

3. How does it make you feel? To be quite honest sometimes it makes me what to smoke more and drink more coffee LOL and of course, I go to my porch to regroup my own thoughts and behavior. That is what I call a stress smoke. (gosh I got to kick that bad habit soon) I know when I have had enough of fighting with a computer screen and people who lurk behind it. I can take for example with no names mentioned being called all kinds of names like verbose, illiterate, stupid, crappy poet, a police officer, bitch etc etc the list goes on. Now when someone makes a remark for instance your dead you are gone and fuck off, well that is where I draw my line, for not only in here is it against the guidelines but also is a violation of the internet policy. No one should threaten anyone ever. Judges take internet and text messages very seriously nowadays. I know this to be fact. You cannot just say whatever you feel like without recourse if you continuously harass anyone here or in life period. End of discussion with that for now

4. How would you respond? I would politely ask the person who has gone overboard to please refrain from any more comments to avoid any further discord. Finally, I would get to a point where I will say thank you and move on. Time we have that we spend on here to me is my quality time and it should not be wasted for useless argumentative situations. Not only it disrupts the person it disrupts the entire site. It for the most part affects everyone.

Okay enough now I shall give the pool floor to someone else. Time for a rest.

And a cup of coffee.

Ms Mona

Well, it's definitely not going to help to retaliate. So, I'll listen to whatever they said, and if they're being unnecessary, I'll ignore them. I not going to justify childish behavior by actually giving them the attention they're looking for.
As to how it makes me feel, I don't think anyone will essentially feel nice about being attacked. My personal response is to immediately become cold, and withdraw, I suppose. But I think I have, or am starting to reach a point in my life where I can simply shirk off such things. Besides, it's a person who doesn't know me, and therefore has no basis, and no strength to hurt me.
And I've already said what my response would be. But I do think it's also wise to remember that people rarely do things like that for absolutely no reason at all, so they might just as well be hurting too, and trying to cast some of that off themselves. Mathematically, it's simple cause and effect. So though it's difficult, I'd actually try to garner some understanding of why they'd do it, and try to help them, if possible.

Yours, idealistically

Waldo

Jim, you ask,

"What do you do when someone attacks you persoanlly, and not your poem?"
... i ignore it

How do you react to such an attack?
... i don't

How does it make you feel?
...doesn't affect me

and how would you respond?
... with silence

but that's just me
i simply don't waste emotional energy on
things that are not important to me

when one attacks another (here or in real life)
it is more often that not, rooted in the antagonists
emotional shortcomings, rather than really being
about the "attackee"

cheers
p

How do you react to a personal attack:

Off line, I react badly to a personal attack. That is to say, that I read the personal attack, then swear and flip them the bird. Then I give them back dead silence! Or nothing written.

I must apologize for my lack of participation this weekend as I was bitten by the stomach flu bug. Just starting to feel human again, LOL!

always, Cat

Comment deleted.

sorry to have intruded

Olympic Workshop Critique

Hello Brittle Light how are you.

On this write if I may add some raw truth to it at your request.

I have to honestly say this is a bit scattered for me. I had to read it several times to try and get the flow of meaning in it. It starts as something about the skull and then veres to a Maple Tree or leaf. It then disconnects as it goes further and speaks of the tree. This is a hard one for me to decipher and give a good critique and no offense is given here.

It appears your write may be one that states you are not a snake or a mouse but more so as metaphorically speaking you resemble yourself as a Vermont Maple. (am I digressing here yet)

I think if you use a better way of format perhaps for I think I get it but I am also unsure.
It is a poem about self I can figure that much but I am lost in words and may have to come back to read again as it's clarity is not speaking to me just right.

Chyrs and Our Group of Olympians:)

I can honestly say I had a little time with this one for I felt it was all over the place. I kind of picked up some little things in it but it was a bit scattered in thoughts perhaps. I will wait to read what others think on it. I did not feel a crit was in order from me as what I only presented to the writer what and how I flet upon his write. That is all I have for today:)

Mona

I try and find something I like about the poem first, then I try to think about if there are any words that don't sound right. I try to make suggestions and make sure the author knows they are just suggeations.

lou

Poem Critiqued:
In the Meantime
By: Brittle Light

http://new.neopoet.com/node/4100#comment-37022

new
Dear Brittle Light,
I am thinking this poem is about being between lives, waiting to become whatever life form comes next. I thought Karma decides for us, what we will become, according to what we have learned in the present life. And of course what we need to learn. Please let me know if I am off base, here.
I like these lines:
deciding to entitize
...to become something
a mouse, a snake,
or a poet
come what may
I hope that in this life, I have learned my lessons well enough not to repeat my mistakes. I like this poem because it made me think and reach for understanding.
Other than what has been said, I have nothing to suggest, only appreciation for the work.
always, Cat

I have been attacked only once, and that was on the old site. I responded with polite over-enthusiasm to the attack, thanking the person profusely, commenting on how "wonderful" and "helpful" his critique was, and humbly acknowledging his "superior knowledge" and "advanced skillset".
I never heard from this person again.
I do agree however, that the easiest and most effective way to respond is to not respond at all.

http://new.neopoet.com/node/4100

Critique:

I really enjoy this. Deliberately dropping into an alien perspective is always a great excercise, and I love the way you do it here.

In the first stanza, "Here, hear", I would reverse these two words, to make the meaning "hear me at this place and time"
I would drop the "Ah!" in the third stanza, it isn't neccessary, to me,
and "me all" at the end sounds like an english peasant, lol, not a New-englander or Mid-westerner (which I assume is the voice here, forgive me if I am wrong) thinking deep thoughts about other perspectives.
Really good Al, short and sweet, but vivid and personal. At the end I got the sense of the author realizing that the maple's main task defines its existance, and that merely being in the now is enough for it, and every living thing.
Most excellent.

Respectfully,

Jim

Can someone tell me where we are at so I may catch up.

thank you
Mona

http://new.neopoet.com/node/4243

The Demise Of A Mind
By: China Blue

Dear Chrys,
Such vivid imagery! My favorite lines (and most meaningful)
Meaningless scraps
Are left in the dust
To be swept away
Through the canyon
That once was
A mind
As Lonnie already stated, good word usage! I wouldn't change a word of it! I have no suggestions, only appreciation for the work.

I could not bring myself to leave crit yesterday but I will say this. I felt this one clear down the valley to my sunny home in Florida. I especially was in tune with this part as well and it had a profound affect on me:

Meaningless scraps
Are left in the dust
To be swept away
Through the canyon

I like this as it is what one feels as they write. It is also readable and very understood. I know this much. As one may write what they feel and not always what they know. It is a good example here of sharing your innermost feelings, with a write such as this.

The image was real for me and I sat on it for a time. Thanks for this one and I shall stay the course in your well taught workshop. I admire your courage and your strength as well.

Good writing Chrys

Spirit of Love
Ms Mona

Magics has not left the building:)

Okay, uhh, what did I miss?
Sorry for my absence. I've not been playing truant, just been doing a LOT of things.
So, I shall return! Hahahahaaaaa!

sorry i haven't been about much, i'll buckle down and do some work, promise I haven't been playing hooky with Waldo LOL !!

lou

It's called nookie...isn't it?

Lol!

HS

I think something's gone terribly wrong if I've no recollection of either!
Nooooo! Tell me someone had a video camera!

...and that's why you shouldn't feed the animals meds...

Waldo

My first instinct would be to say that I feel a certain sense of guilt to it, as if that's what's eating his mind. But insanity could play a part. Regret. Loss of control.
And perhaps a bit of hopelessness, even in ignorance.

As to the critique itself:

Most prominent to me would be to simply invert "once was" to "was once" in the penultimate line.

In line seven, I'd change "into" simply to "to", if only for the reason that it seems to flow better with the next line then.

The only other thing I can think of, is line thirteen and fourteen.
"Till there is
No conscience thought"
Something there just seems to stop the poem a bit abruptly before it continues, but I've yet to be enlightened by an alternative.

It's beautiful, in a haunting, disconcerting kind of way. And I can certainly relate to feeling what you describe; sometime when I've written a bit too much, and my mind doesn't seem to function in this particular world anymore.

Thank you though. And I do hope one of two of my suggestions may help... seeing as there are only two...

Yours :)

Waldo

HI,

The poem reads like something is ravaging the mind, either depression or bad memories, of a person or situation, may be a bi-polar disorder where you feel ok, but then the dark side pounces. The language used used really makes you feel that you are inside a mind that is falling apart.

Having said that there are a a couple of small tweaks that i my opinion would make the poem even more expressive if thats possible: line 5-6 coulde be 'Till there is a void or nothing but a void line,' the last line could be' the bleak canyons of a desolate mind.' I think that this would aid the flow of the poem.

Apart from that a very emotional well written poem.

Lou

In answer to your question:

Have you been able to take anything away with you
was this workshop helpful?

Yes. It has served to help me improve my critiquing skills. It has opened my eyes, allowing me to see how to critique in new ways. Learning from fellow poets. And made me less timid in terms of reporting infractions to the AEC when someone is out of line. I would say this workshop has had value.

always, Cat

Have you been able to take anything away with you
was this workshop helpful?

I will try to keep this short:) That is one thing I learned and although I am a writer I like to give details probably more then others care for. It is just the way I am. I took away alot with this workshop as I read the other members in here and tried to incorporate a better curve to my critiquing. On a personal note I got distracted away from this worshop for a day or two as I realized what was transpiring on site.

I did focus back to the workshop and so enjoyed the professional conduct of everyone involved in this project. Not one person took advantage over another. It was a calming learning environment. I kudo you Chrys for being the strong teacher you are and bringing subject matter and participants back to focus. That is a quality of a leader and you hold that well.

I hope you give an analysis and crit to what I need to work on or what I lack in. Or in general some tips to the members of your pool. As Golden Gal also said it opened my eyes very much. I would recommend this workshop again and maybe extend it to a longer amount of time, as is just a suggestion. Have more time with less participants, so it is not so much on one leader and maybe spending more time with say 5 or 6 participants instead. I call that HONING IN in as just a thought.

Everyone it was a pleasure to be in this pool and I would do it again. This is what I enjoy and never the mudslinging. Happy Memorial Day to you all of you.(sorry I did say this would be short but all should know me by now:)

Blessings to you all
Mona

First, join the workshop in a TIMELY MANNER. heehee.
Second, that a good critique will always get a positive reaction from the author of the poem, even if the criticism is negative. If it's done properly, the author can tell.
Third, These workshops have raised the level of, depth and thoughfulness of criticism by orders of magnitude. I've seen several people give very good critiques, where formally they did not.
lastly, everyone can give good criticism. It doesn't matter how many letters you have after your name, it doesn't matter how professional you are, oe how much you've published, or anything.
It comes down to how much you care, for the site, and the prople in it.

Chrys,

as we are drawing this first workshop to a close, I just want to say how vert proud I am of how you you've handles every aspect of the workshop process.

I know there were technical difficulties at the beginning but you stuck at it and made it work. The rapport between you, the mods and participants and the laughter, have made this workshop a most enjoyable place to be.

I have visited the workshop every day and have picked up some really useful tips and suggestions on how to improve my own critique.

Thanks to everybody involved in the workshop...you have all managed to help make the project a major success,

thanks,

HS

Just wanted to let everyone know that I'll be away for about a week; camping, writing, and studying. So I just wanted to say thanks, to all of you who've taught me, listened to my mad ramblings, and made it quite and interesting and good experience.

I shall return, however. So see you all when I get back;)

Au revoir

On the same page!
Chrys - my abject apologies once again, for being such a dismal moderator at this particular workshop. I can see from this, that you all had a lot of fun! H.S., MONA, CAT and all the other participants who gave their extrapolations on - how to critique adequately, let me say - I salute you all. Good points, well laid out for all to pick up and work with. There's not much else I can add except to say that I am looking forward to this next upcoming workshop! Good site to be on guys, thank you for your concerted efforts!
Regards
Boni