About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

To join a workshop, first find one that is of interest to you. Once you have found the right workshop (and verified that it is open -- you can find this out in the description below), you can apply to join the workshop.


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Naked Emotion, Truth and Originality

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description:
How do we express powerful emotions with falling into sentimentality? How can we communicate an importunate truth without lapsing into slogans and clichés? What is originality and how do we know when we have strayed into derivative, rehashed, or imitative writing?

This workshop will feature a discussion leading to each participant choosing a set of emotions and/or ideas they want to express and a strategy for communicating them in an original way.

Stage one, a general discussion about the effective and ineffective ways of writing emotions and ideas in an original way.

Stage two, we’ll talk about things we want to express and difficulties we have had expressing them in the past, citing a specific poem and we will give each other feedback with suggestions for overcoming those difficulties.

Stage three, we will write a poem attempting to tackle these ideas/emotions in an original way, with little consideration for form or structure, except as it directly contributes to the idea/emotion/originality.

Leaders: Jess [weirdelf] and Ron [BlueDemon77]

Moderator(s):

Objectives: To develop original and authentic approaches to expressing emotions and ideas.

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter: Emotions, ideas, originality...

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
20 people
Date: 
Tuesday, July 30, 2013 to Tuesday, August 27, 2013
Short description: 
Naked Emotion, Truth and Originality

Comments

I would like to join!

Keep Writing,
Carrie

"Quoth said the Raven, NEVERMORE"

As long as we don't have to tell all the truth,
I will have a go at this one lol
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Please include me. Pillows and all.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

how to arrange your pillows!!!! I guess I am in trouble now..... :)

Keep Writing,
Carrie

"Quoth said the Raven, NEVERMORE"

You're all in and most welcome. We'll start on Tuesday.

As much truth as you dare or promise, Ian.

Pillows, Wesley? Anyone caught napping will be fed to the sharks! Oh, wait, this is all pools, relax, the sharks are well fed.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Since I tend to write from an emotional standpoint, it will be nice to know how to manage those feelings on paper so they sound like something intelligent....

Keep Writing,
Carrie

"Quoth said the Raven, NEVERMORE"

to end my pains with the writer's block, please consider me in.
I really need something to re-energize my batteries.
Thank you.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

but it should help.
You're in.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I certainly would like to join this one, Regards Roscoe...

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

and most welcome.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

when does the discussion start? I'm nigh bored out of my mind and could use the stimulation.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

But weigh in now by all means, would love to hear your thoughts.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

It is a difficult concept.
I have recently pulled all of my small poems together into a book as requested by family and friends (they seem to think I am a good poet and I'm not going to straighten them out).
I title the book "Yet Another New Thing Under The Sun".

And so a blanket statement-
Originality is impossible.
Mankind has been writing for some ten thousand years (not counting some forty thousand years of cave drawings and the like). Mankind has been writing in an organized form with an alphabet for possibly five thousand years (the Phoenicians probably coalesced their alphabet around six thousand BCE at the absolute earliest and likely later than that).
Jewish scholars took and ran with it around 2500 BCE and when the Greeks grabbed it we were off and running. Someone wrote Homer's stuff down and we have been cranking stuff out ever since.
Around 1450 CE Mr. Gutenberg copied a Chinese model and made a printing press. Now everyone gets to write and print sharing what they have produced.
So without all the chaos of the preceding centuries we have had over five centuries of writing and reading.
Making something NEW is virtually impossible.
Now we have had several decades of this machine I'm "printing" on. Our phones can produce "literature" (granted a strange form of it... "lol").
So what can we do?
To use the vernacular... "fake it".
We can still produce that which "seems" original.
Importantly we can vehemently avoid that which is obviously overused.
A common example-
Let us not rhyme "love" with "above".
Things like that must be anathema to us.
Our subject matter must surprise.
Sentimentality is good only when the language is so powerful that it forces an emotional reaction even though we see through the sludge.
I am (as all here know) a died in the wool traditionalist when it comes to the form of my poetry. I personally think this is dangerous as I am wallowing in a world of "non-originality". I write in such a way as people have been writing for two or three centuries and so I am, in a very non original phrase, "doing heavy lifting".
I will not, of course, cease to write in this way as I truly love and am fascinated by it. It satisfies me, but I recognize that I have set myself on a course more difficult than most of the poets here. When I place a page on my writing board and begin to produce, I know that my pen is much heavier than other poets.
Yet I still believe I can produce that which "appears" to be original. It just takes a bit more work.
From the mechanical point of view, I offer this. Something that I think far too many poets here at NeoPoet eschew.-
Proofreading.
Far too often I read poems here that are filled with misspelled words and typographical errors. No one bothered to look at the poem before they posted.
But that is least.
Proofreading is not only to fix punctuation and grammar, but rather to "hear" the poem and determine if something there is "old hat". Have we heard this far too many times? Is this a tired statement? Did I see this on a tv show recently?
IS THIS BORING?
Let us look carefully at what we write and tear down that which is "dull".
Let us look carefully at what we write and "fake it" well.
We cannot produce the original. Too many have written for too long, but I do believe we can use the "seldom used". Let us try to go where only a few have gone and not where the masses abide.

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

Learn how, teach others.
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

that we can't often come up with something original. Something that no one ever spoke of before, BUT, I still like to think that everyone of us is unique in a way that might affect our writing and as a result, the same theme can be tackled differently due to different features such as cultural backgrounds, earlier teachings, religion...etc.

As for that proofreading thing, I beieve that much of the blame should be put on our earlier school teachers who didn't pay much attention to such details and I don't exclude myself. We always paid more attention to produce correct grammar than correct puncuated sentences and paragraph, hence come the typographical and misspelled errors, yet this is-I know, not an acceptable excuse of course for someone who aims to convey a message to the world which I think the goal of each one of us here.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

if everything is automatically original because a unique individual writes it, what are we talking about here?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Hi guys, just dropping in.

Inspiration is a gift that comes unbidden, it seems. However, it comes with a few cautionary tales and few exceptions.

One must be willing to let go everything one *knows*. The rest of it is listening, really listening.

~Anna

Do you have room for another?

Scott

Scott

You're in.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

This is a very interested topic and I look forward to the discussions. I do tend to agree with Wesley's words above, but only to a certain extent. There is most likely nothing that would happen today that hasn't already been documented. So, in that respect I believe there is very little room for originality. However, it's our version of experiences that define us. If the two of us were to come across a snake, we would have completely different reactions depending on how life had presented snakes to us. The picture doesn't always have to be about the image or even the colors it is painted in. Sometimes it can be as simple as how those colors are blended together.

Appreciate you letting me in. I am most certain I shall make you regret it.

Scott

Scott

I'd like to join this workshop.

I agree with Rula that our uniqueness is crucial to originality in our writing.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

and welcome.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

This sounds like a very helpful workshop. Sign me up.

You're in.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Were we to start today?

Scott

First everyone's ideas about originality.
Wesley's essay is a good starting point.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

To expand on my previous post, sometimes it's not the idea that always has to be original. How the idea is presented can be or can add to the originality of a poem. The Masters prove this as they write about subjects that have been around since the beginning of time (nature, life, death, emotions, etc.) but they presented their idea(s) with words that have never been grouped in that manner before and added to that a venerable device that did not leave us bored and tired of the language.

One thing I think should not be lost in the discussion is that it is typically not the poet that decides if the poem is original. The target audience is going to play a big part in determining what is and is not one-of-a-kind.

Scott

Scott

Where are we going to have this discussion at? This page? In chat? Where? I'm sadly confused.

Originality first.
Then emotion vs sentimentality.
Then expressing importunate ideas.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

The spontaneous write from a mind that can cope with the thoughts freedom.
Most poets dredge their minds for memories that are of the past.

Be it the way their lives have been and the trials they have been through.
.
Originality the first touch of a brush on a virgin canvass before the thoughts catch up with the theme, as poetry that is written there in front of your eyes.
Many of my older pieces were written for someone in any place that I found the need, beer mats, scraps of paper, here late at night when I become bored, or think that I may have a need where I just write.

I put a piece on stream the other week that I wrote in 12 minutes and that is Originality.
If only we could write in the now, I think this workshop is going to push a few into abstract thinking masking off their daily way of writing I so look forward to this part..
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

it is likely that whatever we write will be original in the sense that those words have probably never been written verbatim before.
But will they feel original? Have a sense of newness and freshness about them?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I think the best way for me to think of originality in poetry is to think of it as a candy egg.

The shell is beautiful and unique in design, but still easily recognizable as a candy egg. It fits our schema of a candy egg. We know from its outward appearance that the egg is hollow. We also know that the hollow egg contains some small pieces of candy. Mints. Jelly beans. Cream. Gum and what not. But even though we know all about the purpose and structure of the candy egg, and, if we have eaten one before, we can remember what it tastes like, we will never know exactly what the insides hold.

In poetry I feel like you fist see the title and words of a poem at face value. Each poem is different and beautiful in their own way, but all are still just a poem, much like the shell of the candy egg. Next, we consider the structure of the poem, (or the egg). We know about meter, metaphor, and meanings, just like we know the structure of a candy egg. Hopefully we have read other poems, possibly with the same subject matter, so we can understand the emotion the author is trying to evoke. To me, this is just like remembering the flavor of the chocolate shell and candy of the egg. However, just as we can never truly know or approximate the unique filling of each egg without taking a daring bite, one can never truly sense a persons pain, sorrow, anger, joy, longing, or fear without truly diving into a poem and trying to live the poem, just for a moment. This is what I believe is the definition of originality. The ability to fit the archetype of a poem, while giving the reader a unique unexpected emotional experience despite the recognizable and standard forms and topics of poetry.

Rhiannon.
hmmm, now me want candy!

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I can agree with Wesley's view to a certain extent. I think my approach to writing, whether poetry or prose, is more centered to the challenge of being emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually honest. I try to never get in the way of what imagination and/or inspiration grants me. Getting my writing close to what is in my head is a huge challenge as well. If I succeed in the two above, I think I've done pretty darned well.

Rigorous and constant reading across multiple disciplines is a tool I use to decide not what is original, but what is exciting to my sensibilities or what I feel compelled to write, so I constantly try to write what I enjoy or what I consider important. I then try to strip away all falseness in my communication. I don't think there are no new ideas out there, nor angles of approach. I see artists across disciplines doing pretty interesting work. Reading prose stylists like Don Delillo and David Mitchell and seeing what they've accomplished very recently keeps the idea of fresh writing alive with me. People were probably saying there was nothing new under the sun when Kafka, Nabokov, and William Burroughs began as well but that didn't stop them from changing the whole landscape of writing. If the need exists to believe that everything has been covered, then just confidently tell the story you have to tell and let everyone else figure out the rest. I'm not saying be trite or derivative, I'm saying the effort to not be trite or derivative is an exciting enough challenge. Read, write, and enjoy the process.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

spot on. for a variety of reasons, those you mentioned and also to know what has been done. Reading is essential.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Originality belongs to the poet not the poem, or the readers. Only the poet can trully say whether it was an original thought, or whether he or she has thought this before. Or whether they remember thinking of this before writing it down. Originality means new so any thought from the past can't be new, or any thought you've think you remember thinking before is not original. Emotion on the otherhand belongs to everyone, because everyone has feelings, though some differ, it would still be an emotion. Truth, well can we really say whether someone knows if they're telling a lie, or if they trully believe what they're writing or saying. Naked is having the courage to lay bare your all in a piece of writing, and having your naked thought, emotion, and truthfulness judged by others. Regards Roscoe...

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

I think we can safely assume most people won't be intentionally unoriginal, unless they are spoofing something. Might not the reader, though, find something derivative when the writer had the best of intentions?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Your point is on the money, Jess. While many of us may find the thought of putting this kind of falsity in our work without the intent to write satire, parody, or character driven comedy completely disgusting; there are those who write formula or fiction that is never meant to be taken seriously. Look at the work of Richard S. Prather, one of the more famous Pulp detective writers of the 20th century. He, and many others aren't trying to illuminate new truths or elicit a potent, emotional response. They are simply trying to follow their pattern or formula and tell an entertaining story. There are many types of writing as well as many types of painting, sculpting, etc. In the case of someone like Prather, he does what he does with no apologies. You'll find the same with other pulp writers.

If the writing is not in the category above, then the writer should hope that they have a trusted reader or editor to smack them across the head when something blatantly derivative is turned in. It may not go so far as ruining the work and the reputation of the writer the way that bad grammar or constant misspelling would, but it's pretty up there. It exposes a wide vulnerability in either the knowledge of the writer or the inability to objectively look at their work (quite common). The genesis of this logic is "I wrote it so it must be good" or "It made me cry so it must have that effect on all the other readers." Neither of these is true and at the very beginning of any project the ego must be put into a metaphoric little box so it doesn't smother the real emotional truth of the work. Without this being done first, the writer is exposing a lack of skill in expressing emotional situations.

Pre-production, character sketches(psychological) and planning a story with a synopsis will help this problem, but ultimately, like in most things, we sometimes need to bash our heads off a wall before we understand. We must experience the humiliation of being laughed at for bad work or get lower grades if relevant. I was told a plethora of tips of how to avoid these things but it took some rediculously bad writing and it's aftermath to make me finally see the light.

I hope I made sense there. Also, READ, READ, READ!

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Very true in my case as well. I am a relatively private person and there are many, many poems I have never shared for this very reason. It's a barrier I have crossed with certain pieces that were once on my "never show" list, but I feel I will never be completely courageous until there is not one poem I've self censored. That's why I feel that concerns about originality do not belong in the category of top two challenges of a writer of any type.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

sorry, duplicate post

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Has a lot to do with honesty and courage.

Honest writing is true to the poet's spirit and unique perspective. The honest poet doesn't try to write like what he/she sees, but writes like he/she is.

If everyone is unique, writing true to yourself should make one's work original.

Courageous poets are not afraid to be original, go against the grain of thinking or try something new.

I've had many instances in my fantasy writing where I thought of an idea I liked, but threw it away because it didn't "feel like fantasy".

I rued all those decisions later, because they were my most original thoughts.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

there can be no originality without honesty and above all courage.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

A poet, indeed any human being, eventually settles into his/her own skin. An authentic voice emerges, one that doesn't parrot but sees things in an original way.

Everything else we can't claim as *ours*.

~Anna

even that which is 'ours', does it really belong to us? Or to our reader?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

It is ours until completion, then we release it. There are times we hear of a writer going back to revisit work from a more recent point of view and such, but again, after it's out of our hands, it's like a child we send out into the world. It takes on it's own life and there isn't anything we can do about it.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

I tend to write from gut instinct. I write whatever I am feeling at the moment and it is usually brutally honest. I live in chaos, therefore my writing is often chaos. I am in and out of depression and bitterness, so is my writing. Honesty is incredibly important. In order to write well, you have to be honest with yourself. Coming too far out of character can leave a reader feeling like you have put on errors or are fake, it can take away the passion and drive behind the poem....and then you have lost your reader....

Keep Writing,
Carrie

"Quoth said the Raven, NEVERMORE"

is essential.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

On Wesley's assertion that originality is nigh impossible I remind you of the virtually infinite combinations of words possible. This quote from a classic Stephen Fry sketch sums it up-
"Imagine a piano keyboard, eh, 88 keys, only 88 and yet, and yet, hundreds of new melodies, new tunes, new harmonies are being composed upon hundreds of different keyboards every day in Dorset alone. Our language, tiger, our language: hundreds of thousands of available words, frillions of legitimate new ideas, so that I can say the following sentence and be utterly sure that nobody has ever said it before in the history of human communication: "Hold the newsreader's nose squarely, waiter, or friendly milk will countermand my trousers." Perfectly ordinary words, but never before put in that precise order. A unique child delivered of a unique mother."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFD01r6ersw

Of course we severely curtail the possibilities when we rhyme, but the range is still virtually infinite.

Wesley's section on proof-reading is profoundly important. Read it again! Proof-read, aloud! Read aloud to friends and neighbours.

I add to that, reading poetry. How can you know if your work is original if you don't read other people's poetry? Especially the greats, they are a short-cut to knowing what has been so well said it has become cliche.

Only a very few of us are so innately talented we can write from ignorance. Do you really think you are that good?

I'll comment on others views very soon before we move on to the the very difficult task of separating emotion from sentimentality.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Scott says
" it is typically not the poet that decides if the poem is original. The target audience is going to play a big part in determining what is and is not one-of-a-kind."

which is in direct opposition to Roscoe's

"Originality belongs to the poet not the poem, or the readers. Only the poet can truly say whether it was an original thought, or whether he or she has thought this before"

who is right?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Scott and Roscoe, well we disagree that's good for the workshop,
Now where did I put that originality let me do a reality check..
We all think, and those thoughts are usually dictated by circumstances, then in comes Probability he says that if they go along with his reason then there are going to be:-
"many themes that are about the same thing",
" and many things about the same ththeme!!
Yet I only got one Hamlet out of 7 billion humons plus one Bard bless his Spirit, also the rest of his works.
Even knowing his works could anyone sit down and duplicate them word for word..
Damn right It is NO!!!
I don't care what anyone says, really each of our poets is an independent thinker, to hell with Probabilities it is impossible, they all think and write with Originality, there is no way except for cut and paste that any person can be otherwise.
So that's kicked that subject into touch, shall we proceed to the next level LOL..
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

however I think Wesley nailed it when he said it must feel original.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Your comment on this part of my reply just answers the question as to why poets are different..
If I were to write as you do I would have had a hell of a life in some ways.
But I shall just accept that I even bothered to write.
You gave no Indication as to why all people are the same.
Prove it !!
We would have no need to have a stream there would be just one Poem the same from all of us.
What a crap answer.
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I said distinct individuals don't necessarily produce original poetry.
Everyone has some concept of rhyme and verse, if only from advertising jingles and rap songs. They will probably not write original poetry though. You know this.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

In my opinion, originality is the condition that when a work is finished, it either exposes a new truth, puts an established truth in words that succeed in more accurately defining the original concept for the world, or in its' best case, is breaking new ground altogether. It is indeed judged by other poeple other than the writer, and whether the writer has thought of this before is irrelevant. It is only when the work is released that an assessment can be made as to whether the work is considered original or not. I'm holding onto original thoughts that have never been written since 1988. One day it will come out and if the literary community deems it original, then the fact that I carried it around for so long makes no difference. Many writers carry stories for years before the compulsion to write them.

Original means hasn't been done before, or unbefore seen mixtures of topics are put together in a way that is interesting, new, and striking. New metaphors that somehow illuminate new areas of human nature or human thought stand also as original. The theory is good to study and these topics are good in helping a writer to define what they wish to do, but it is the release of a piece, where the rubber hits the road that will weigh in on the assessment as to whether the work is original or not.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Part One:-

About the effective, and ineffective ways of writing emotions and ideas in an original way.

These two things are dictated firstly by the poet themselves, their experience or not of any situation, or the range of their imagination.

There are so many emotions around and they affect people in many ways that for a start gives Originality a boost.

Many poets write from their life experiences, sadly I had a wonderful life with smooth old fashioned love, hardly an argument , and a childhood to match.

So if I write about beatings, and other bad things, it is hearsay, or just knowing these things happen.

What should I do, just write mundane life stories in poetic ways??

It now appears that due to my upbringing and happy life, I have to invent another Originality.

That is the thing I have, it's called an imagination, that produces Digit and other things, like Dragons and Fairies, giving them feelings that I have not experienced.

Which of my poetry is wrong?

I cant sit here and write only of original things and cry through boredom, or I can use my imagination and join others reality, making another Originality.

Works that describe any emotion, Jess has mostly said, must be from experience of the writer.

Maybe I can use an excuse that I have lived long enough to see the emotions and effects they have on other people to be able to write about them.

Not sure where this is going so I will stop for now and wait for others comments,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I get what you are saying.
We all struggle or strive for authenticity, originality, honesty.
Originality is not a virtue in its own right, other factors come into play

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

At last a discussion on the workshop has come through..
Each of us must be our own judges on the originality of our works.
If the work is too old hat, then should we put it up for viewing.????

Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

to be told it is crap, so we can do better.

did you read Scott's cautionary tale about his 'original' idea that had already been made into a movie.

I told someone once that "a bridge over troubled water" was totally OWNED by Simon and Garfunkel. They threw a spaz attack wrapped in a conniption fit. I would have been grateful, to get the warning to avoid the pratfall.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I somewhat agree with you Ian.T
I think anyone can write anything
about everything
and still sound like they know the subject
they are talking about due to
Imagination .. just because someone hasn't
been injusticed or hasn't killed doesn't
mean they can't create those emotions
that it must of took to go through or do
anything anyone has experienced.

The best actors have shown us that ..
We can and some { like me } do
Create our own realities/ worlds ..
I know everytime I read a book I actually live it!

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

I have been writing of late just for fun as I had become tired of the set pieces we tend to write, My nasty friend Digit has been causing Havoc in places scattered all over this country.
He has been out there killing and gathering trophies, and as you say I hope the write is good enough for others as it is a purely imaginative piece that has seven parts so far.
As the reviews are few and far between I am not sure if it is good or not.
I put these on another site and they generate money so I don't over worry about Comments but it would be really good if more poets and mentors especially would read and comment.
You take care of you out there and always remember we are here to talk as your need, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Scott says
" it is typically not the poet that decides if the poem is original. The target audience is going to play a big part in determining what is and is not one-of-a-kind."

which is in direct opposition to Roscoe's

"Originality belongs to the poet not the poem, or the readers. Only the poet can truly say whether it was an original thought, or whether he or she has thought this before"

What do you think?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Can't agree with Scott on this one!
If a poet cannot decide,
if his poem is original or not,
then he is lost someplace.

Roscoe is right, it is the poet that decides originality.
If the poet thinks of something and writes it down,
This cannot be other than original.
There is the exception of a remembered line or poem,
then this is either Cliche or plagiarism,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Earlier in the discussions, the word opinion was used and a query was issued for facts. I would like to first state that I surmise nearly everything posted in this workshop has been opinion with the exception of the chronology offered by Mr. Snow (If I missed something in a post, I do apologize). Therefore, please allow me to enter a fact as I know it.

I was 19 years old and in my naivete fancied myself an aspiring young writer. I had an idea for a novel. Thought it was an excellent idea. Even shared it with a friend who commented on how original the thought was. Not long after that, we were out renting a movie. As we perused the shelves, my friend came upon a movie and almost instantly began laughing. Without a word, he handed me the movie and turned it to the back cover for me to read the summary. And there it was, my original idea, put to film and stacked on the shelf at the local grocery store. It was a harsh reality. Color me a fool. How could I, a talentless teen on the plains of South Dakota, have an original idea when some 5 billion people walked the earth and another 100 billion finding eternity in its soil?

It was my first real-life lesson in writing. There would never be an original thought in my head. If I were to separate myself from other writers, I was going to have to offer a voice that was unique and then write that voice in a manner that would allow others to color between (or outside if they chose) the lines with their own circumstance. The reader was and always has been my judge and jury. It would be arrogant for me to tell someone else how to view my work. If a poem is to stand the test of time, it must be judged by the reader. I know for myself one of the first criteria I place on a poem is if there is something about it that I find original. If there is not, it is highly unlikely that I will ever return to read it again.

Ian, you have stated that originality and spontaneity are one in the same; offered evidence of a poem inked in just 12 minutes. I too have been quick with a pen putting over 500 words of what may be referred to as poetry on paper in around 40 minutes. I penned another work of nearly 350 words in under 20 minutes. (By the way, neither was free verse). The time it takes us to create a poem is inspiration, not necessarily originality. Not saying that originality cannot be spontaneous, but just that spontaneity does not directly define originality. One of the works I find to be my most original took me nearly 5 years to write. If we put that to the litmus test with Roscoe's statement that a thought is only original on its first pass through the mind, then there is nothing original about that work in any way, shape or form.

You state "If a poet cannot decide if his poem is original or not, then he is lost someplace." Yes, kind sir, I must be lost because I do not believe that I could ever be the sole judge of my work. Being lost, I guess that would put me on a road less traveled. And how unoriginal is that?

With respect,

Scott

Scott

The reasoning behind my words, was that every thought we have originates from our own concept of being, this is Originality, and what makes us so unique.

Popovs or whoevers Dogs can be trained to react the same way to a bell, but we have free thought.

Or should have, bar the daily brainwashing the media throws at us..
Some good points though,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Originality largely comes from the outside, the audience. A writer may percieve that a work is original because she/he has never addressed it personally, while it may have been fully addressed some hundreds of years ago in an obscure text or elsewhere.

The second argument is faulty to me because if an idea isn't communicated, it is still new, hence when published would likely be considered original. Both of these are dependent upon having writers who read and see what is being done by other writers. In 1976, I wrote a 36 page short story in which the bad guys were called "Cylons". It only took a year or two for the Battlestar Galactica original series to premiere, and who were the bad guys? The Cylons. I know they didn't rip me off, it's a kind of creative synchronicity that happens constantly. Still, though I had the idea presumably first, it was the people who brought it into being as a production that made it original. Let's not get tripped up on the tangents. This is a complex subject and requires a level of clarity and honesty from us that I wish for in my own work.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Dreams, writings from dreams, the belief that prose and poetry come from some outside place and we as writers are merely conduits. We control the craft and would try with the same dedication to not let our craft ruin the original piece. The third perspective is to write your story without a thought about the reader. Of course we want the work to be accessable, but that is maybe 8% of our process as writers. We're too busy writing and resolving implausibilities and other flaws in our writing to psychologically pre-analyze what people may or may not say after the fact. In writing, "to thine own self be true", is a powerful statement to live by.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

still taking ppl?

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

you're in and welcome.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

with the plethora of language available filtered through our own unique poetic sensibilities. With the exception that we may be inadvertently unoriginal through ignorance.

Yet not everything does feel original. We've had some great suggestions about what makes it read so and how to make sure it does.

Reading a lot. Honesty. Authenticity. Innovative choice of language and form.

I'm sure we all want our words to be perceived as bright, shiny, fresh and true.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

While I await word as to whether I'm too late to join I'll put in a few thoughts :
There can be originality in many different things. The form of a poem can be original (but beware, just because one hasn't run across a particular form doesn't make it original, it might just be obscure). There can be originality in subject though I don't profess to know a single subject which hasn't already been written on.
I guess theoretically there could be originality in the emotion conveyed via a poem, but again we've been writing about emotions for millenia.
There can be originality in a narritive poem . But even if one limits oneself to only the most contemporary events aren't they all repeats of the past?
So this leaves very little to work with when seeking originality doesn't it?
Perhaps the least explored thing in writing is secondary meanings within a poem. Has there been a love poem written with a secondary level dealing with war? Or a nature poem with secondary industrial level?
probably yes to both . But this writing with various levels of meaning is fairly rare at least on most poetry sites I've visited.
Perhaps this shop will be dealing more with trying to avoid over used things than it will with being truly original.For that would be worthy of a doctoral thesis lol.

As an afterthought, lack of originality can be a Good thing if used as practice in becoming a better writer who is searching here, there and everywhere for Something to do which is truly original. It's also a good way to discover if something IS original. One need merely post it and state that one thinks it's original. Somebody will let you know the trurh of it.........Now I'll shut my finger up(Hey is a talking finger original?0 and await clearance to participare..............stan

To me one of the most deadly pitfalls in writing about feelings and emotions is to lapse into sentimentality.

Can you give us some example of sentimentality?

How can we spot the difference?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

But I'm not sure what the difference is. I'm here to learn.

As you say, "You must go where I can not,"
I cannot seek out your thoughts they are precious to you.
We are sealed in our own thoughts.
The beauty is that we are able to share in words,
The sights and beauty in most cases that we perceive in this world.
The things you fear, and many others I need to know of.
I haven't the time on this Earth to learn of all things.
Show me what you see, that I may be Wiser.
Yours as always Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

(actually, I would, I ridicule people all the time, but I don't mock honest questions)

Do you ever hear someone emoting about something, often a disaster or something else they are not directly connected to and think "this is fake, they are not feeling those emotions, they are trying to show that they feel, to make people think they care." They often invoke prayer, which is the ultimate cop-out for doing nothing whilst appearing to care. Or perhaps throwing a big tantrum over an ex, to get attention?

A dictionary might help here.sentiment as a disparaged thing is
'exaggerated, overindulged, or mawkish feeling or emotion'

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

A great example of this show of emotions was in a programme I watched the other evening.
A man and wife, no matter what the buildup was..
They put a petrol bomb through the letter box of where their six children were up stairs asleep.
The children Perished and the man told them how he tried to rescue them and that someone else was to blame.
Him and his wife even went and did an interview on TV for the police.
Both were trying to cry.
End product that both the Ba------'s are in Prison serving life.
Those are the people I could shoot without a thought, but it showed false emotion off as you said,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

not criminal murderers but real honest poets failing to express true emotion by trying too hard and venturing into emotional dishonesty.

Can you give an example of that?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

False emotion is a pretty good way of looking at sentimentality, but I don't think it closes off both ends, dots it's I's and crosses it's T's. It like saying Hydrogen is a gas. An undeniably true statement under normal conditions. What isn't told is that Hydrogen has one valance electron, has an atomic charge of +1, and if concentrated and ignited, is flammable.

Just like above, yes sentimentality may be false emotion, but I run into it much more in writers without the skill yet to either let go enough to let the true emotion bleed out of them, or most notoriously, a writer consciously tries to make a "tear jerking" scene or scene of similar falsity, dishonesty, and manipulation.

Using manufactured emotion as manipulation of the audience it the truest and most deplorable use of sentimentality. It could be melodrama, it could be the writer imposing what she/he thinks is emotionally true. But if it is false, and still written, then we don't have a writer who cares about the artistry of writing and storytelling or is ignorant as to how to depict real emotion. Instead we have a person trying to strum the heart strings of readers with a ball peen hammer. It will not work out. Tell the truth, even in fiction, have emotional characters behave as you have seen human beings act in similar situations.

This isn't easy to do, there are a lot of things, like the ability to write believable characters, and the artistic detachment that tells you when your writing is ringing false. Some newer writers combat this by writing out a sketch of each character in as much detail as can be mustered. Then as the story progresses, there are written reminders of the nature of that character.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

This has been very helpful and you described sentimentality very well. Thanks for helping me understand.

of sentimentality.

We may not use examples from other poets on Neopoet without their permission. And truly there aren't many these days with the "sewing circle" dead and buried. There are a nauseating plethora of them on Facebook. Often about servicemen and dogs.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

"can't use examples from other poets on neopoet without their permission"???. I think I'll have to disagree on this. Once a poem is posted on a workshop site in my opinion it becomes open for use within the site. But it Would be polite to ask first..............stan

However in this context it would be very impolite indeed.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I've got plenty of my own bad poetry to choose from and thus don't have to hurt others' feeling using theirs lol

I agree with Wes everything
that is done has already been done
somewhere throughout time
The cycle forever turning

I teach my 2 sons that
Its not what you say but How you say it
Its not the product, originality, your trying to sell
but How your trying to sell it
Be confident in everything you say
and people will believe you know
what your doing

Basically, if we all tell the same tale
will all the versions be considered "Original"?
Our perceptions and upbringing, experiences
and thinking processes all envision the same event differently
but the art comes in to play when we describe our vision
Which words we entangle to bring forth our vision playing in your mind
How we choose to create originality thru the experience we give to the audience
not the experiences we use

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

While reading an ordinary modern crime novel recently it struck me that what the characters were experiencing was utterly impossible only 10, 20, 50 and especially 100 years ago. The ways we communicate and encounter life are so much faster. We don't have time to process our feelings like people did 100 years ago. I'm not putting a value judgement on this. I'm just saying it is different. We are different people to our ancestors and our art will inevitably reflect that.

Could this be the root of the prevalence of cheap sentimentality? People trying to express feelings that they haven't had a chance to process yet?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Something I dont do well...writing with emotion often gets me in trouble due to the various expectations of the audience...I will find examples and come back to.this

Keep Writing,
Carrie

"Quoth said the Raven, NEVERMORE"

that sentiments are real and should be experienced while emotions shouldn't for necessary.Emotions might be fake and they are usually not experienced, is what I understanding right?
If yes, how could the reader know for sure if the writer is faking the thing or if he's really experiencing it?

I always thought we can't write about anything if we can't really experiencing it?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Sentimentality is inauthentic and emotions are real and necessary.

Readers are pretty perceptive. That's why we say write what you know. Few can get away with faking it and why would you want to?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Thanks for bearing with me.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

For this conversation, I think it can be taken for granted that the narrator is generally reliable. Your questions about the truthfulness of the emotion suggests that an unreliable narrator is present, someone you have reasons to mistrust. While completely valid, it is an advanced topic for a later time. For now we are talking about the actual writer (you) putting across false or overblown emotion to manipulate the reader, not the characters in the piece. That is my take upon it.

I agree with Jess, your definitions for sentimentality and emotion seem to be switched. Emotion is the real thing, while sentimentality is the sugary false counterpart of emotion.

Your post has been perhaps the most important in the thread so far as it further helps us dissect the true meanings of emotion and sentimentality in writing. I ask that you look at my post in response to Stan's post below to get my perspective, right or wrong, on this topic.

Thanks,

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

and thank you. What made the confusion in the first place was mainly that most of the time you'd read the commentators saying "I appreciate the sentiments" but never " which in a way hints that sentimentality is something good and it was my laziness not to check the dictionary for it. Now as the terms are completely clear I want to thank both you and jess for the clarification.
I shall look into your post of course.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Jill Spargur wrote this piece called:-

Tragedy

I always wanted a red balloon,
It only cost a dime;
But Ma said it was risky,
They broke so quickly,
And besides, she didn't have time,
And even if she did, she didn't
Think they were worth a dime.
We lived on a farm and I only went
To one circus and fair,
And all the balloons I ever saw were there:
There were yellow ones and blue ones,
But the kind I liked the best
Were the red, and I don't see why
She couldn't have stopped and said
That maybe I could have one -
But she didn't - I suppose that now
You can buy them anywhere,
And that they still sell red ones
At circuses and fairs.
I got a little money saved;
I got a lot of time,
I got no one to tell me how to spend my dime;
Plenty of balloons - but somehow
There's something died inside of me,
And I don't want one now.

The talk of Tragedy, when the whole poem is read there is NO tragedy.
Not sure what the poet thought, probably a satisfaction of not doing..
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I think you did an excellent job. You began with a completely realistic and emotionally honest scenario, then sprinkled it with little specks of sentimentality. One gets the impression that the falseness of emotion comes from the writer himself with his overvaluation of the red balloon. It's kind of like the famous "sour grapes" story, where the protagonist talks himself out of wanting the item since it is already out of reach. The ending, however is emotionally honest:

I got a little money saved;
I got a lot of time,
I got no one to tell me how to spend my dime;
Plenty of balloons - but somehow
There's something died inside of me,
And I don't want one now.

This makes clear one of two facts: Either you have grown out of red balloons or it wasn't the balloon that was the point but that the mother didn't buy this small treasure for you.

There is sentimentality here but it would likely pass the uninitiated eye as raw emotion.

Excellent work and excellent example of sentimentality in a writing.

Thanks,

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

This is a piece that was put up as an example of sentimentality, I must try and find a piece of mine that does the same.
This would be hard though, as I have a lot of trouble remembering the works I have written.
I write from a slightly altered state if you can understand what I mean, I type without looking up at the screen, then correct all the Red underlines after then send.
I know this is not good sometimes but it is a habit of mine, I wish I had learned to touch type.
This is not an easy workshop, I will wait for the next stage..
Many thanks for your talk with me, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I once wrote a poem which was originally titled DEAD DOG POEM; it was purposely written to be a bad poem with false sentiment. Let me see if I can dredge it back up........It was on the old site and thus the only extant copy is on PAPER which take a bit of time to go through.........Hmmmmm..........here it is. For some reason I changed title to ON THE SHOULDER :

DEAD DOG POEM
I see you dead there on the shoulder
while driving my old truck
ruffled hair starting to molder
a dog who has run out of luck

Too oft it seems your species' fate
is a quick death by car
somewhere your mast must await
and wonder where you are

Perhaps your eyes, starting to glaze
when bright, sought out a child
with whom you'd play on carefree days
and run around with as if wild

I guess your coat, matted and mangled
yesterday was smooth and bright
your owner would keep it untangled
a beautiful, full lustrous sight

And your poor heart now dead and cold
once warm and full of life
would beat with pride and pulse so bold
at sight of owner, child or wife

Now those days are in the past
no more romps and hugs
I hope they find you pretty fast
'ere you're consumed by worms and bugs

I guess this could be taken at face value and perceived as one who really Is disturbed by a nandom dog road kill. But it was written tongue-in cheek as a sarcastic ramble about yet anouther dead dog. Hope this serves as a good example of false sentiment.

Now as to sentiment vs. sentimental. ALL sentiments are real in my opinion. But being sentimental can often be false..........'nuff said for now...................stan

I would agree that much of your content would qualify as sentimentality except you made it satiric and that same type of emotional exaggeration in satire isn't quite the same thing as sentimentality. It is instead kind of poking fun at sentimentality. There is also a certain emotional detachment from the subject matter that doesn't lend itself well to the sentimental or the emotional in general.

Here's an original stab at sentimentality:

When I was in 10th grade I had wood shop in High School. I enjoyed it, the smell of friction burned wood and fresh sawdust was soothing to me. I decided quickly that I would make a shelf for my Grandmother. Her knick-knacks had taken over most surfaces in her home and I thought it would be something she'd like and would be functional.

I worked on it for a couple weeks, cutting, sanding, varnishing, smoothing. I put it together and realized my mitre skills were not up to what I had thought. There were 1/4 inch gaps at every point of connection. It looked like a shelf from an F.W. Murnau film. Still the wood was beautiful and the finish was perfect so I decided to give it to Grandma anyway.

I drove to her house, feeling kind of apologetic and fully expecting her to be kind about it but to dismiss it quickly and talk about other things, or change the subject by suggesting we play a game of Aggravation like we often did. I had wrapped the shelf in a container made of paper grocery bags, taped tightly. My anxiety grew; I knew that my grandma loved me but she had a blunt truth about her that her 84 years had granted.

As I knocked on her door. I heard shuffling inside and at last the door opened to the smells of potpourri and freshly baked goods. I smiled and said "Hi Gramma!".

"Well hi Ronnie-Lee, I'm so glad to see you! What are you doing? I figured you'd be out with your friends."

"Nah, Grandma, I made something for you in shop class, really took my time on it, and was hoping you would like it."

"Oh, dear, you didn't have to do that......"

"I know, I wanted to. Here it is, I hope you like it." and reached the 20 lb package all wrapped in brown paper to her."

She opened it slowly, like she had always opened Christmas presents or any other wrapped gift as long as I could remember. After she was done, the wrapping paper was unripped and folded into a neat square.

She looked over the shelf like a diamond cutter assesses an uncut stone. My anxiety grew by the second as her silence continued. Then I noticed a lone tear travel from under her glasses and down the soft ridges of her cheek.

"Well....do you like it Grandma?" I queried.

She turned and moved to me with surprising speed and wept. "It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life!" She hugged me tight, her 95 lb frame gripping me, her head to the side in the middle of my chest.

"I have something to tell you too", Grandma uttered and lead me to the dining room to sit down. "Ronnie, I have never treated you correctly. I always looked after your brother, thinking you'd be ok. I have felt guilty about that for many years and never told you. You were always my favorite, I quietly followed all your activities and was very proud of you. I have had many a child and Grandchild pass on and was devastated, but if you were to go, I don't believe I could live with myself anymore. In heaven, you will be the one I am watching."

I continued to hug her and at last initiated the process of release. "Well Grandma, I just wanted to give this to you, I have a date with Alana."

The tears almost visibly sucked back into her lacrimal glands and her hands fell from my side.

"Well. I know you're busy but thanks for spending some time with an old woman in her loneliness.."
End

My attempt here was to write a good, plausable story then muck it up at the end with sentimentality. I believe I was successful. It was meant to be real and completely organic until these lifelong issues began resolving in a very rapid and implausible way. It was meant to manipulate the audience with the 'lonely Grandma' motif. I would never let this get by in a normal writing. It's not true emotion, it's fake emotion to manipulate my audience with an "Aww, isn't that sweet" series of emotions. In the end I had to tell the truth, that we weren't close but that her words were meant to manipulate me.

Look it over, please and let me know if it does ring false like it feels to me in the final third.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Would you have realized my poem was satire if I had not identified it as such? This is important as it affects the way a poem is interpreted by the reader,

Also for both you and Jess : is this shop going to be about poetry or both poetry and prose? In my opinion "hiding" false sentiment is easier to do in prose than in most forms of poetry.
Then there is the age and experience of the writer to take into consideration. A person could very well write something in youth which seems deep and original then with age and honest retrospect later see that it was just another teen angst/love/anger/ect. poem. So originality and true emotion within a work must be a relative thing which is tied to the reader or writer's experiences or lack thereof. Damn! I'd best shut up now or ya'll might think I truly believe I know what I'm talking about lol..........stan

For the sake of this argument and for manageable comment length it would be a good idea to restrict our purview to poetry.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Yes, I would have recognized it as satire, parody, or black humour. In my reading, I've been lucky enough to happen across writers like Twain, Pope, Burroughs, and Harlan Ellison. I don't know how to describe it other than there seems to be an instant lack of proper emotion for the dark subject matter. Sometimes it's the transgression that pushes it over the top. The narrator said basically "poor pup but that's the breaks" which would completely ruin any kind of real emotional appeal. For true emotion, (and rest assured, it could easily segue into sentimentality) the reaction of the family. The hysteria of the children, the father having to carry the pup's body to where they will bury it. It could easily be the stuff of real emotion. Satire has a certain detached tone that doesn't lend itself to real emotion.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

Sorry if my prose example confused the guidelines. It was a spontaneous writing that I thought could really illustrate both emotion and sentimentality, so I included it not having planned to.

I believe sentimentality is very identifiable from real emotion. If a writer constantly goes back to the sentimental to get the desired reaction from his readers, it is manipulation. Expressing real emotion gets under the reader's skin and takes them back to a time when they felt this emotion so it goes inside them. This is the goal and the stated reason why sentimentality is less effective.

"A sentimentalist", Oscar Wilde wrote, "is one who desires to have the luxury of an emotion without paying for it." In James Joyce's Ulysses, Stephen Daedalus sends Buck Mulligan a telegraph that reads "The sentimentalist is he who would enjoy without incurring the immense debtorship for a thing done." James Baldwin considered that 'Sentimentality, the ostentatious parading of excessive and spurious emotion, is the mark of dishonesty, the inability to feel...the mask of cruelty".

So sentiment is simple feeling as your writings have suggested. Sentimentality is the incorporated allegiance to overblown emotion for a cheap response from the reader.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

please post any further examples as poems to this workshop. Remember to choose the Workshop drop-down when posting and to include (Naked Emotion, Truth and Originality Workshop) in the title.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

pretty new to poetry and writing actively. would like to join this workshop. =)

catch up on the arguments so far and add your own thoughts

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Originality:
I think originality largely depends on the reader, if a poet writes poetry for himself then all his work will be original (well i do not see why a person would create a carbon copy of something else and claim it was their idea). While if you write for others, then it would be largely up to the reader to decide if the work is original.

I'd also challenge the statement that your work has to be original, I think more than original, it has to be original to your target audience. If your work doesn't connect with your target audience (be it yourself) it's not work you can be proud off. It's all fine and dandy to break the mould, but if your reader doesn't identify with it, it's not a good move. This is why you need to separate the idea of writing for yourself and writing for others, because most of the time you will always connect with what you are writing due to the fact YOU are writing it. While not everyone will have the same opinion on your work, it may work for some and not others.

So rather than being original, you need to sort out who your audience is. Say for example, if you are trying to educate kids on WW2 history, would you write a poem which would be more tailored to people who lived through the war? So what could be original to one target audience be cliche to another.

Sentimentality:
I think the dangers of sentimentality is writing about things you don't fully understand as if you understand it. I don't think there is anything wrong from writing from a sentimental perspective, in all actuality this could connect to your audience more. Think about if you want to write about how 'wars kill millions of people and it is bad' (very simplified I know) people may connect with a guy who lived through a war from an empathetic perspective, but they won't ever experience the truth of what he had to go through. While a person who writes about how it feels to watch his own country be tricked into a war which the general populace is ignorant (this is the sort of stuff I like to write about) I think most people could possibly understand. The guy who lives through the war probably creates more powerful emotions from the reader, but the guy who talks about the lies politicians spew to go to war will affect the readers psychology more because it is more relatable.

Also I have sort of written an amateur poem on sentimentality in the sense i feel is being talked about here.

A Good Samaritan
I would say cheer up,
I would say love life,
To the crack addict on the corner of London road,
For crooked toothed smiles,
And words of thanks,
But that’s just bullshit,
False kindness,
False superiority,
False gratification,
An excuse,
To be insincere,
So the sounds of my footsteps is all I give him,
As I walk away.

It's not great because it's like my first few poems.
But basically I feel kind words which has no tangible value or even money given with the secret desire of self validation is meaningless. While it may help the homeless person in short term basis, I think rather than throwing band aids to a chronic problem, it's better to invest your time into a long term cure. We should stop giving homeless people money and start being angry at the government they are homeless in the first place.

I have this concern about the whole idea of a target audience though. It's outside the scope of this workshop, but I still want to ask:

Doesn't targeting your poetry to a particular audience reduce it to a marketing instead of an artistic endeavour?

I prefer writing what I feel I should write, not what I want people to hear, because it feels less authentic, less pure to me.

.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

It's within 1-2 months of me writing poetry so I am not very experienced. But what I meant by the fact you have a target audience because you are always trying to manipulate the reader, evoke some emotion or memory or whatever. But as I said if you feel that your words are less authentic and less pure, you are writing for yourself. In which case it is fine to write whatever you feel like and it will always be original, this doesn't necessarily mean your poetry won't work with other people. But when you don't take into account how your audience will react, it would be a stroke of luck rather than genius.

For example your quote kind've explains it, if you want to do a 'good job', it requires more than just emotions and truth, it requires presentation of the emotions and truth.

Also there is nothing to say that it isn't your pure thought, true mastery would come when ideals and poetic form collide to make the best of both worlds, when you can freely write while not being constricted by rules you set. E.g. When you can convey what you want in a haiku without losing any of the truth due to the syllables and lines.

I am using logic rather than experience.

Let's talk now about ideas, politics, philosophy. The difficulty of expressing them and how brave or obnoxious we may need to be in expressing them. This will include religious and spiritual concepts.

Like a brainstorming session we will not argue the validity of any ideas, only how we can convey them effectively.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I believe that religion was created by the kings and queens who
ruled over the masses to better control those masses and their money ..
politics I don't believe in or have nothing to do with ..
ppl vote for which liars tells them the right lies
the right way

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

Politics and religion are about clever men/women brainwashing the masses into a certain way of life, if only i had the courage to kick down the door of a church on a Sunday morning. And give my version of what i believe is happening, i'd die happy i think.. Regards Roscoe...

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

Some of your poetry has overtly political and very effective content. You courageously state truths that need saying, amidst the clamour of media lies. That is what we are talking about here.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I have written a few poems on both subjects. In doing so I try to convey how both affect the individual instead of trying to make blanket statements. In my opinion appealing to folks in a one on one basis is most likely to convey whatever I'm trying to say.

Now many people write on both with an angry rant. And to many people the rant overcomes the message. I think a reasoned, gentle poem is more likely to invoke reflection on the subject than somebody just "yelling" in the readers' faces.

On both subjects the writer must be clear and specific in order to have any hope of changing a reader's way of thinking about the subject. Don't just say the present gov't sucks, say and give examples of why it sucks. Don't just state support/non-support for religion. Tell how it affects you personally.

At all times one should consider how sensitive both subjects are to most folks and when writing one must remember that an offended reader is Not a reader who will pay attention to the ideas contained in a poem.
Now I'll duck behind the screen as words are hurled my way telling me how wrong I am ............stan

There are a few aspects to this. Sometimes we want to persuade, in which case a calm reasoned approach is best.
Sometimes we are just so bloody angry about a state of affairs the a poetic equivalent of Edvard Munch's "The Scream" is in order.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

mustn't be taken with much sensetivity if we can keep that enough amount of respect, then we can read and read what we like or just leave it.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
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The difficulty in conveying political or religious ideas is that they are sensitive. Respect is sometimes nigh on impossible.

This discussion could include strategies for presenting ideas in a way that they can be read and heard with impact and without war [grins]

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I'm afraid i have no time for sensitivity when it comes to politics and religion, there's just to many people hurting and dying from ignorance to be worried about people being sensitive. Regards Roscoe..

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

the point here is how to say what we need to say without people stopping reading after the first line, without compromising.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I guess a person could use humor or perhaps depend on the religious or political message being conveyed on the secondary level. Both would give a person time to think before "turning off" the poem. And god knows humor is a powerful political weapon..............stan

“Ideas”
Ideas in poetry can be from either fact or fiction
The mind and the written word, are free to express any Idea they wish too there are no restrictions.
One of the freedoms of poetic writers.

“Politics”
We are free to express our political views, in poetic form I am not sure if there are trigger words for the worlds networks of spying systems that monitor your works if you use one of those words.
I am very serious when saying this we are never sure who is spying on who or what when we use the net.
A simple word like Bomb will probably trigger several spying networks, then the names of our leaders will probably do the same who is safe from these systems, NO ONE so I would rather not talk about Politics on the net in any form.
Do we know what our modern phones are doing, or what is worse the TV’s we watch each day are they just receivers ????????.
So, writing about these sort of things to me is really taboo.

“Philosophy”
As I always say I am a spiritualist by leanings and have had good teachers in that world.
I have changed the odd Philosophy to a poem; this is a hard thing to do as the Philosophy is normally a long sentenced creature, that resists being chopped into short lines.
Philosophy is really a wonderful outlet for many religious statements, if we compose our Philosophy correctly with the flow and meanings they can be of use to many people, and a joy to write.
If you try to push your religion down our throats you are asking for trouble, as out there, there are many that have lost the base of any religion and will scream at your words.
Philosophy on the other hand can be like hearing music not all will like it, but it can be a truth that some want to hear, others it may help and then you will still have the ones that will still scream at the words or ignore them.
Hope I am not missing the point again LOL

Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

If these Items are going to be discussed are we going to do it on individual Blogs from you ????
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

(ASIO is Australia's CIA or MI6)
There is no point hiding or dissembling now.
The truth must out

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

The way I handle both subjects is from a perspective. I think it's impossible to not sound ranty or biased when dealing with these two areas. So what I try to do is just show people how I see it and if they agree fine, if not, then it doesn't matter because we are all different. But I am trying to persuade as much as possible and it's hard to not come off all propaganda. I think the best poem about these subjects is the one which doesn't enforce the view of the poet, it convinces the reader without ever pushing any ideas. This is why I choose perspective, they can see from my point of view or not. If they don't, I doubt anything you could've done would've convinced them. Becaue if they have never felt what you felt, it's like describing what it is like to see to a blind man.

Though try reading some of the more overtly political works here. Roscoe in particular is excellent at political works that avoid jargon or preaching.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

What Am I Yearning?
Your hunger for late night snacks,
Doesn’t compare to the yearning
I feel, as I see the lack of learning
As you look, at the pixalised screen.
Your vision turning shades of acrylic
And the sounds a high pitch tuning,
As the government programming,
Begins another day,
Your brain once again,
Enjoying having nothing to say,
As you watch and listen,
While realising as you do these things that
You are hungry for some late night snacks.
So as you get up, hear in the background
Of some attacks, “the rebels have won!
The rebels have won!” “A monumentous
Victory for Democracy!” Forgetting that
Months ago a rebel was sighted eating
Human hearts and all. So you feel
Comfort that the rebels have won,
“Democracy has won!” so you reach
For your snacks.

Wrote it in a fit of anger. but as you can see, I failed to not preach. Some one in another forum gave me very good advice saying I should've asked the question and never answered it. I should've let my words show my anger rather than tell them how pissed off I am they haven't learnt shit. I should've left it open ended also, because poetry about politics and religion is a choice. You choose what you want to believe about these things. So I should've presented an argument and provoked the reader to defend their own beliefs and get them thinking.

Shall we talk about poets and IDEA'S first,
or are we going to combine the three or whatever subjects
in one giant piece.
We sit talking and thinking or anywhere then an Idea filters in.
So we write about it and if it's me I really couldn't care a crap for what others say it is just an Idea fact or fiction.
The ability of a poet to convey an Idea to others is where her/his skill comes in, whether they believe it or not.
Now't else to say, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Yes that is a great point, conveying a message while the person reading it disagrees is the hardest thing to do. I think there can be no greater skill than that.

we will all name an emotion, an idea and find an original way to express them.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Do you prefer a verse, stanza or entire poem? And do you want something new or will something old work? Also do you wish I stop asking questions? lmao............stan

We've only had 2 days on ideas, perhaps there are more thoughts to come.

I think I would like to see people challenge themselves and write an entirely new poem.

What do you think of us suggesting an emotion, idea and form for each other? That would be challenging! Can you see me writing a a joyous, evangelical Christian poem in epopee? Eeeeeek!

The only questions I object to are ones already answered in the syllabus, which you don't do.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Have just written a new poem with emotions in, and put it on stream as part of this workshop, this section is becoming rather long, which shows the impact of the workshop, well devised,
Yours ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I'm afraid some found the discussion overlong and know of one person who has dropped out,but we will get to the nitty-gritty of writing poetry soon.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I thought the discussion showed that Neopoet's poets are alive to the world outside, and prepaired to write for change. If that sounds sentimental and hicky what the hell i believe it, you've got a good one here Jess, lets keep it rolling...Regards Roscoe...

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

thanks Roscoe, awaiting your concept

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

That's a good idea as it might lead to folks writing outside their comfort zone. Perhaps assign partners who would then determine what each other would write about? .....................stan

Everyone suggest an emotion, an idea and a form and assign them to others to write a poem!

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

An idea, an emotion, a form,
a sudden whim, floats from the trees,
the leaves of autumn in the cool,
such fools these paper feathers of the woods,
they think they'll last forever,
growing slowly showing green,
when suddenly they're torn right off
and landing in the lane,
trodden on by many feet,
are never quite the same.

Just having fun in here 'scuse I
Ann

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

I wrote this quickly with no sentiment, but plenty of tongue in cheek.. Regards Roscoe..

On Both Counts…

My mother was Ethiopian,
she died from starvation,
giving me her bread that
I could live
I started in her fallopian
tube pre gestation, the
ultimate she did give.

My mother was something else,
we lived in a fancy house in Mayfair.
She and I lived the life of self,
my father was lord Mayor.

My mother gave up her freedom
to marry that rich gent, that Ethiopian
child’s father never had a scent.

Their both alive today, though
both have a very different life.

One married a rich fellow,
lives a life of superior breeding.

The other is fighting to save her
starving child, due to the fact of
having been bred.

I the politician must make a political
decision, who do I look after in my
life of turmoil, one I simply feel
sorry for, the other pays my campaign
from his soil. I wonder what’s the
Christian thing to do.

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

A great way to write on a sensitive subject is to address it as indirectly as you can, without hiding the message totally.

People react to certain words, phrases and the like so quickly a message, however meaningful may be lost before the poem is half read.

We're all prejudiced (even the open minded ones), and it clouds our minds when the right words trigger the wrong reactions we're most comfortable with.

Throwing hints at the issue, suggesting instead of overly saying does it for me.

I also feel that people, whatever their political and religious inclinations, respond to logic and irony. Relying on these should help bring out a message without driving off the reader.

I wrote a poem once that shows how I (sometimes) go about it:

"At Christmas time,
The windows close
And fog out
The chilly clime.

The stars in the sky,
Are burning and bright.
The children are warm
And cozy inside,
And the little match girl
Is left out to die."

.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

Hard hitting and irrefutable.
There is a superb cartoon by the great Ron Cobb showing a rich white kid saying to a poor black kid "If you got presents it's because you are good and if you didn't it's because you are bad, just ask Santa"

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Yes, this really kicks the stuffing out the Turkey, great little poem. Regards Roscoe...

Roscoe Llane,

Religion will rip your faith off, and return
for the mask of disbelief that's left.

I just wrote a piece last night for the workshop now they have moved the damn goalposts and stolen my ball,

I would give you a forest glade or the emotion of coming to grips with being alone there,and the solution you arrive at ???
Yours as always Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

delete this from this thread and post it as a poem for the workshop, ok? The thread is getting too long for people to read through.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I did both at the same time, it is on stream as a separate poem,
Under the workshop heading.

I have suggested one for you, but will give a couple more:-
Not really sure as to what you need on this one but will modify the list.

Distress then Relief. Trapped in a place where there seems to be no escape then the relief of seeing a way out. maybe.
Idea:- A nun in Love

Death and Grief. We are all aware of what death brings, but would like to see the grieving process written with much feeling.
Idea:- The dead watching those that are grieving sometimes laughing at the false ways shown

To love then lose. Very similar to the last one but the feelings though similar can twist so many ways as opposed to death which is more final:-
Idea:- A yo yo of torment leading to a death because of false hope or a future meeting where time has passed and things are not the same..

Loneliness and Realisation (Yours) The ability of a person to overcome absolute loneliness, by reasoning or accident or help there are a few ways to overcome this to realisation of many things around the person
Idea:- Isolation as a cure then the realisation of the great empty space that even the memories can live in...

Cheers, Yours Ian.T
.

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

but where are the ideas?
And a suggestion for a cruel and unusual structure?
Ian, you seldom read the syllabus or the suggestions for exercises, I really wish you would.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Next you will want us to write it for them, what sort of Ideas are you wanting.??? Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

present a concept comprising an idea, an emotion and a form. See what others have done.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

The form can be freeform,but should include a stipulation for unique structure.

We will then assign everyone to write a poem to those criteria. This could be very challenging, see my previous comment about writing a joyous Christian evangelical epopee. I think this would be a very worthwhile exercise. I will assign who gets what semi-randomly. For example I would not give Rula an evangelical exercise in Islam or Roscoe a leftist commentary on the monarchy. Are you all in?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

idea-----a woman attempting suicide

Emotions----Despair, fear, anger

Form------Monotetra

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

I'll give it a go. May take a little while as my schedule is still hectic

Scott

Scott

We have plenty of time on this one and some started late.

I generally burn hippys, whilst allowing myself to bliss out when appropriate.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

The form/ a sonnet OR set of tetrameter quatrains.
Emotion/ raging against poetry
Idea/thinking of poetry as an inadequate tool to convey our messages.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

a rhyming poem
with ababc rhyme pattern
emotion : loss, of a loved person, place or lifestyle
idea : the loss should be conveyed on secondary level and poem should be written by somebody who is intemidated by rhyme

lets get a few more concepts in from the others then decide how to allocate them.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

emotion - jealous rage

style - enjambment (with rhyme)

idea - religious leader seeths as his/her followers begin leaving the flock and devoting themselves to the work of a political martyr. any political subject matter will do. The poem should have socioeconomic undertones.

Scott

Idea ~~ write a poem from the conscience of one personality amongst many others
contained together inside of a person living with Multiple Personality Disorder

Emotion ~~ confusion, chaotic connectivity, detached

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

Let's let a few more come in then start some writing outside, really outside...

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

idea-----a woman attempting suicide

Emotions----Despair, fear, anger

Form------Monotetra

Ron
Blue Demon77

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

I googled the form Monotera but couldn't find anything that helps.
Would appreciate any clarification.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
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It would be great if this concept is added to the other ones. Others might like to use it for their writing

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Many thanks

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Reading these ideas makes it clear that we'll all be challenged by this shop..........stan

In two(s) or three(s) write in the same concept and idea but different forms. It would be even more challenging. What does everyone think?

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

we'll make it optional

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Choose one concept to write on, not your own, do try one you know will be challenging for you.

Rula's- The form/ a sonnet OR set of tetrameter quatrains.
Emotion/ raging against poetry
Idea/thinking of poetry as an inadequate tool to convey our messages.

Stan's- a rhyming poem
with ababc rhyme pattern
emotion : loss, of a loved person, place or lifestyle
idea : the loss should be conveyed on secondary level and poem should be written by somebody who is intimidated by rhyme

Scott's- emotion - jealous rage
style - enjambment (with rhyme)
idea - religious leader seethes as his/her followers begin leaving the flock and devoting themselves to the work of a political martyr. any political subject matter will do. The poem should have socioeconomic undertones.

Precious's- Idea ~~ write a poem from the conscience of one personality amongst many others
contained together inside of a person living with Multiple Personality Disorder.
Emotion ~~ confusion, chaotic connectivity, detached

Jess's- idea- Fibonacci Numbers and the Golden Ratio (a quick Google might help here, this is not just fun maths it is the beauty and strangeness of nature)
emotion- enthusiastic bewonderment
form- classical sonnet or, and this would be really tricky, line syllable count matching the Fibonacci sequence.

Keep the concepts coming everyone. And remember to choose this workshop dropdown when saving your poem.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

This should be ok for me as I wont be able to write about my own title.
I shall write about your, idea- Fibonacci, Numbers and the Golden Ratio, and its beauty in nature, it is the beauty and strangeness I have noticed but you gave me a name for it.
Emotion:- I shall bring in one of the great artists-
His enthusiastic energy that his painting brought to his brush.
His bewilderment in that he couldn't put the, Fibonacci sequence at the tip of that brush.
I shall try to sort out a form to match your classical sonnet or, line syllable count matching the Fibonacci sequence.
I may be some time but it is not life threatening cold outside,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

i didn't think anyone would take me up on the Fibonacci challenge, bless you brave soul!

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I'll take precious's idea....no I won't...yes you will...no...yes .........both of you shut up you're driving me crazier ...........stan

I was going to do the same but we couldn't decide on a subject, him or me so we plumbed for Jess's Nightmare LOL ,
Take care have a lovely day both of you, Yours Ian.T He He

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Who is this "Stan" guy you refer to. It is I. Stanfield, who chose this topic. (Hope I can get into the correct state(s) of mind ...............stanfield

from the link on this page at
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop
or
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/12562

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I write
but im not "formally" educated, consider me an
autodidact .. but im reading up on the different types of poems listed
and I thinx mees is pleased to bees writing about these
Scott .. Im still researching the exact form Enjambment
but so far what I gather from definition basicly it is a run~on thought?
if anyone out there in here or anywhere would like to
educate me on this, I would really appreciate the help ..

I really was torn between Stan's and Scott's
I am a run~on sentence that never comes to an end
but people only can take me in small doses

I have written poems where every other word is rhyming
and love to be challenged to find new ways of rhyming

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

I believe you've understood the word enjambment well. However, I thought it's really more difficult to obtain it when we are talking about structued / metered poems than with free form, especially when we are talking about pentameter (verse line with five metrical feet) or tetrameter (.verse line with four metrical feet)

By the way, I used your idea for my writing and would very much appreciate if you give it a look.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Thank You Rula!
I appreciate you first helping me
in understanding the word
and for choosing my idea
I am goin read now

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

thank you and it did help
now to write

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

Y'all

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

It's that damn stan's fault that I haven't yet completed my poem on multiple personalities. But don't ask him to confirm this as he'll blame stanfield who will then pass the buck to stanton. But I'm gonna get them all together and have something ready by Sunday night..................scribbler

Y'all

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Jess, not sure where to post this, but can you have someone check on the mobile version for the website (if there is one)? I am not getting updates when anyone posts. I have to hunt through to find things and with the length of the thread it has become daunting to find posts I haven't seen. I had no idea Precious was looking for help with regards to my suggestion. Came upon her question by accident. I didn't receive notification that several poems were posted either. If someone else responded or asked a question of me and u didn't get an response, please IM me.

Thanks

Scott

Ps the menu at the top floats around but the button locations for activation remain in their respective locations and I have s lot of difficulty with the buttons (like the save button below) wanting to work. Pressed it 4 times just before adding this comment with nothing happening. It could be my phone but other websites appear to be fine n

Scott

Sorry, I only use desktop. Or try Help>Contact Neopoet>tick Technical issue / bug report.
Yes, this thread is getting very long indeed. On desktop if you click on 'new comments' in the Updates link it will take you directly to new comments without having to navigate the thread.

You don't automatically receive notifications of new poems posted to the workshop, you need to frequently check the link
>> View all poems submitted to this workshop
or
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/12562
Currently Ian, Rula and Precious have posted poems.

As to new poems for the workshop, post them as you normally would to the Stream but remember to check this workshop in the workshop drop-down list and preferably put the workshop name in the poem title as well.

Hope this helps,

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I am not receiving the updates. Is there another place?

Thanks,

Scott

Scott

in the mean-time you could try Googling for known issues with web pages and the mobile device you use.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I know Barbara Writes uses mobile devices, try PMing her or on Facebook she is Barbara Cooper Writes.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

does scott need a special version for his phone. When I use mine I can figure out all the updates.
I don't think there are any special versions needed.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

When I am out, the whole site doesn't show like other sites that I usually brows. Could this be the problem?
Seems to me that Neopoet has a special browser of its own. May be that's what scott means

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

Now I have posts that are not showing up.

ugh

Scott

I'm sorry. I know how this feels. We were all looking for you participation.I still wish you'd be able to make other arrangements to join soon.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

I have managed to get on a laptop for the next couple of days while i am traveling, but then I will be back on my mobile for another week or so. it has been truly frustrating to not be able to help Precious when she had questions. I came upon her posts by accident. I also commented on her piece and a couple others and the posts are no longer there. I hope to be able to get back to them soon because i haven't even been able to start my workshop piece.

Hope you are doing well.

thanks,

Scott

Scott

Choose one concept to write on, not your own, do try one you know will be challenging for you.

Rula's- The form/ a sonnet OR set of tetrameter quatrains.
Emotion/ raging against poetry
Idea/thinking of poetry as an inadequate tool to convey our messages.

Stan's- a rhyming poem
with ababc rhyme pattern
emotion : loss, of a loved person, place or lifestyle
idea : the loss should be conveyed on secondary level and poem should be written by somebody who is intimidated by rhyme

Scott's- emotion - jealous rage
style - enjambment (with rhyme)
idea - religious leader seethes as his/her followers begin leaving the flock and devoting themselves to the work of a political martyr. any political subject matter will do. The poem should have socioeconomic undertones.

Precious's- Idea ~~ write a poem from the conscience of one personality amongst many others
contained together inside of a person living with Multiple Personality Disorder.
Emotion ~~ confusion, chaotic connectivity, detached

Jess's- idea- Fibonacci Numbers and the Golden Ratio (a quick Google might help here, this is not just fun maths it is the beauty and strangeness of nature)
emotion- enthusiastic bewonderment
form- classical sonnet or, and this would be really tricky, line syllable count matching the Fibonacci sequence.

Keep the concepts coming everyone. And remember to choose this workshop dropdown when saving your poem.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

concepts are we supposed to attempt using?................stan

But I did two as I wasn't very sure how successful my first submission was, so I found I might do better with your suggestion, however I'm ready to read as many as you write.

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

You can write at many poems using them as you like. Who am I to stand in the way of the creative flow?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Guess I'll try to write a sonnet which rages against those cussed sonnets. Those things drive me batty so the emotive part shouldn't be too hard lol. BTW in my opinion this may well be the most interesting shop you've ever run . Kudos..............stan

Kudos is currency to me!

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

to check the new submissions at:
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/view/12562
and give critique.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Ron
idea-----a woman attempting suicide
Emotions----Despair, fear, anger
Form------Monotetra
(for the lazybones I have put in this useful link to monotetra)
http://www.poetrydances.com/monotetra.php

A reminder for those who haven't posted a concept or poem yet

Choose one concept to write on, not your own, do try one you know will be challenging for you.

Rula's- The form/ a sonnet OR set of tetrameter quatrains.
Emotion/ raging against poetry
Idea/thinking of poetry as an inadequate tool to convey our messages.

Stan's- a rhyming poem
with ababc rhyme pattern
emotion : loss, of a loved person, place or lifestyle
idea : the loss should be conveyed on secondary level and poem should be written by somebody who is intimidated by rhyme

Scott's- emotion - jealous rage
style - enjambment (with rhyme)
idea - religious leader seethes as his/her followers begin leaving the flock and devoting themselves to the work of a political martyr. any political subject matter will do. The poem should have socioeconomic undertones.

Precious's- Idea ~~ write a poem from the conscience of one personality amongst many others
contained together inside of a person living with Multiple Personality Disorder.
Emotion ~~ confusion, chaotic connectivity, detached (several people have chosen this one, I suggest another)

Jess's- idea- Fibonacci Numbers and the Golden Ratio (a quick Google might help here, this is not just fun maths it is the beauty and strangeness of nature)
emotion- enthusiastic bewonderment
form- classical sonnet or, and this would be really tricky, line syllable count matching the Fibonacci sequence.

Keep the concepts coming everyone. And remember to choose this workshop dropdown when saving your poem and put the workshop name in the title..

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

it is very important we all give feedback on each others works.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

this workshop has developed its own momentum, so I am not going to close it.
Feel free to contribute new concepts and new poems, even if you started late. Contribute your ideas on originality, emotion and thoughts to this thread
I won't be here, I've got to take some time off to do some things I need to do.
That's fine, like I said, its own momentum.
Go for it..

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Thanks to everyone who participated, it's been a good workshop.
As usual feel free to leave critique of the workshop itself.

Now head on over to Wesley's "The Bottom Line" http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/bottom-line
There is not one single poet on Neopoet who wouldn't benefit from learning more about meter.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

As far as I'm concerned this is the best shop you've run so far. Perhaps because it had less to do with technical aspects and more to do with the actual creative process............stan

I have enjoyed this workshop really. I enjoyed reading all the submitted pieces with different forms and ideas. Now I see how there's a line between sentimentality and true emotions. Yes, it might be thin but it is there. :)

Thanks for your efforts .

❤❤❤❤❤❤

Poetry is when an emotion has found its thought and the thought has found words
........Robert Frost☺

Follow me
www.instgram.com/rularules1

A great chance to play with other forms.
Thank you for all you do here,
Yours Ian.T
PS:- sometimes I just love Elves xx

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I enjoyed it too.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

I've really enjoyed the few moments I've been able to participate thank u for the workshop

Alone we shall find our ways into worlds of never imagined discoveries

I hope things are better for you now.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet Directors

author comment

Just throwing in a few thoughts...

Original- cliché-"Target readers," I never target anyone, I write my poetry purely for 'yours truly,' and if anyone peeping through the curtains of my mind wishes to peruse it, they may; it isn't precious, its just me being, or being me. It just came and its style is not deliberate or weighed through time, it is as if the whispers of thoughts in the whole of my history, come together like some of the primitive cell gatherings, and gel into "something" what that something is, is what the poem is, and whether it has this or that attribute, is not my prime concern, but if it 'fits the bill' for someone, then okay.

Emotion- When in love, a poem is a seeking to understand it, to perhaps compliment the loved one, that is when the emotions well to the surface of the vocabulary and express themselves with ease, with passion, not something that can easily be done when one is not 'in love.' As all the adrenalin is charging through one's system, and ready to express itself in so many ways.

Truth well I expect you know what I think of that, its not.

Naked emotion, ooo what? :) meaning perhaps being honest about what one feels willy nilly! Not scared of the consequences, much can be expressed on this theme, much that we are careful to phrase just right, in order not to hurt anyone, or oneself.

Not having read ALL the comments yet. Ann.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

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