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Who says you can't crit content?

Read the Community Guidelines
http://new.neopoet.com/community-guidelines
They say nothing about critting content, only about critting the poet personally.

Some people have smugly suggested that they are not critting commenting "according to the rules". Utter bullshit.

Do a search with the word 'content'
Every single hit is about critting comment.

Comments

I see your point of view, Jess,A poem is taken as a whole : form + content, The critique should be how well one supports the other, Most poetry is personal, and a critique that trivializes content often does same to the author.

Joe

Content is not just a 'matter of opinion'. Some say everyone has an opinion and it is their right. Crap.

Opinions like-
Women belong in the kitchen.
Blacks a stupid and lazy but have rhythm.
Whites are the supreme race.
etc etc. Uninformed opinions, zealously defended, whether you believe in them or not, are just bigotry.

“A poet's work . . . to name the unnamable, to point at frauds, to take sides, start arguments, shape the world and stop it from going to sleep.”
― Salman Rushdie

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Most poetry has a lyrical quality and often touch the persona of the author. Even opinions should not be critiqued,. A critique if this kind simply adds another opinion. We dont wabt to end up in a political argument, for example.

The poem is what it is and needs an objective critique concering how, structurally, the author has succeeded or failed in his/her attempt to marry subject matter to form and vice versa and to have created a unique poetic or prose piece. The key here is "objective analysis"

Jess, look at the link below.

theliterarylink.com/closereading.html

Joe

Dumb bigoted opinions don't.

Poetry is a gestalt of it's every component.

Some poets on this site refuse to comment on content and their reviews consist of correcting grammar or blind praise.

What the hell is poetry without meaning? And meaning is content.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Jess, why would we even bother to critique a poem whose content is so offensive. That woud give it the credibility it doesn't deserve. Then we get into a polemique, not an "objective" analysis of a poems

. The "deep structure" in every poem is what lies beneath the words. As we analyse a poem slowly meaning begins to emerge like the slow opening of a flower, the French say [une eclosion]. The link I sent you gives the 12 steps of literary deep analysis [prose and poetry]

joe

I don't avoid deeply offensive content, I challenge it. I simply contend that content is part of the poem and worthy of content.

The surface structure of the words comes first, then the deep comment. A poem titled "god told me to write this", written by a very bad poet full of trite cliches plagiarised from the bible is utterly worthless. Every aspect of the poem needs to be considered.

There is nothing wrong with polemic or a down and dirty shit-fight.
The is plenty wrong with allowing trite, cliched rubbish to go by unchallenged.

If we don't have the courage to challenge every asoect of poetry then lets revet to
Roses are red, violets are blue, I am so missing you.
retching

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

You are comparing apples and oranges, my friend. Polemic and cliched rubbish are not poetry--they are polemic and cliched rubbish. Easiky dismisssed by pointing out the flaw without analysis. That is how you helped me.

It is not a question of courage.We just don't accept "bad" poetry if it does not meet the definition of what poetry is [sent it to you]. Propaganda in rhyme is not up for any literary analysis.

What you are doing, Jess, is brnging your own fight in what should be a very simple matter of an ESTHETIC creative process and its success or failure in meeting the guidelines of what we call "poetry." I respect your convictions as I share many, but they are misplaced here.

If you critique the deeper meaning of a poem [viz., content'] it can't help but become
an ad hominem thrust at the author. You are much too subjective in your critiques.
Don't bring your fight to this level. I say this with all the respect I have for your abilties,and you knkow that..

We need to separate "Church from State" here,

Joe

look up the word 'gestalt'

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Lest we forget:

po·et·ry
noun
\ˈpō-ə-trē, -i-trē also ˈpȯ(-)i-trē\

Definition of POETRY

: writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm

Merriam-Webster on Facebook

alway content

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Screw "gestalt." I speak fluent German. It means FORM.

Okay, my friend, I am fair and open minded, and all I can say is that I am right ,and you are wrong. You won't say "Uncle" will you. Du gibst mir Kopfschmerzen . Ich brauche eine Aspirine zu nehmen! :Gestalt indeed.

Good luck on your workshops. I have been reading many posts. Impressive.

Think about what we have discussed above.

Be well and carpe diem, ;)

A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

just reread the revised guidelines and you are correct in stating that they no longer discourage commenting on content. But I still think to do so is to invite hurt feelings as one person's rose might smell like sewage to another.I personally don't care too much for the content of the few modern authors I've read but that is just a personal opinion as many of their stuff is praised to heaven by others. So I will continue to Not comment on content much unless it is an attack on a particular person or group............stan

Bravo, Stan,

I say bravo that we're still in a relatively free country, where we can agree to disagree, write poems in whatever cliche, rhyme or free verse on any content we choose and still develop our friendship.

~A

Yet plain good manners were developed mainly as a means of being able to disagree without losing one's temper. So go ahead and comment on content, just remember that it's another person at the other end of the keyboard and people Do have feelings...........stan

for ever ...
maximum 100 years we can flaunt...

loved

What I don't understand in the four years I've been here, how people get goated into these debates. perception is what we all have, which is the domestication of a life. if we look close enough we will disagree on many things and agree on many others. to debate on how another person should think is a waste of vital energy. I say continue in your own way, because you are happy there, that is your heaven. yet my heaven might be different but it's mine. questions are the keys to life. The answer is not always what we might think and so what. accept it or not thats your trip. So the hell with it be you and I'll be me and that's how the world goes round. Isn't that cool, when I look at you I don't see me, when you look at me you don't see you. PERFECT!

taoism
Eddie

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

Thank you Eddie. But this was not a polemic. It was a healthy intellectual exchange on the rules governing poetic exegesis and coreect protocol for critique.. It was done with respect and humor..I respect Jess a great deal,and we do not always see things the same.If you read closely, you would see a strong dialectic between 2 valid points. There was no solution Ithink until Stan offered the compromise.

Jess and I are reasonable men , both passionate about our beliefs. I don't think you saw anyhing to the contrary.

Joe

Let me put it another way. Fixing grammar and offering alternate words is not enough. Let's show the poet we have really read their poem, ok?

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

YOU DID NOT. You used the language of debate,I enjoyed the exchange and we both came out of it undertanding the other's point of view better. Hold your ground, Jess.

That was my intent.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

that E N D S
W E L L ... well
Bravo thank the Almighty... I wasn't the scorp... here...

loved

Ha!..... "get goaded into these dialogs", Joe? A few things come into my mind:

1. Human beings are free to engage in whatever they want (at least on the internet, and in these types of groups). Eh?

2. Human beings have a very useful *tool* to develop: dialog and the monologue that goes around and around one's head.. Writing poems or conversing, even arguing helps us to refine ourselves in our engagement with :"self" and "other".

3. Human beings have the ability to change our perceptions.....hence the subject matter, our responses to one another and our core beliefs on which we base our very being-ness. A very uniquely and precious human ability, I might add.

4. Everyone's mileage may very, depending where one is on their own physical, mental, emotional, spiritual evolutionary spiral of awareness.

Personally, I am quite able to sustain many dialogs simultaneously (some quite contentious), write poetry, be engaged in the world that manifests endless self & other fear and hatred, and have intimate relationships. I think we become too lopsided if we're only engaged in trying to *survive*..... individually and as a species. We lose our sense of commonality and respect for life and liberty, even
as we have endless topics to speak of.....cto write poetic content.

~A

You hit the mark, my Anna. Wunderschoen, meine Suesse :)

Joe

and this is only my view , when you ctit someone's choice of subject matter, you are doing it because it isn't, something you enjoy. Which means if you think it's acceptable to crit that, then you are forcing your personal taste on someone else.

If you are writing a crit on vocabulary, metre, etc, you are actually doing something to help the writer improve.

lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

Content can barely be avoided commenting on. It is the meaning of the poem. All that is left is spelling, grammar and structure.

The question is how it is used. When subject matter is used to push an agenda, even by assumption, it is surely open game. You and I have discussed the difference between opinion and bigotry before.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

I have now become useless in talking about any poem piece or write put on Neopoet or any place as such.
I am not well versed in the correct forms of poetry, as this was one subject not taught at my school and I left early to join the Royal Air Force at 15 so my English suffered also.
I have in the past as is my feelings, commented only on content, and left the English and Form to those that studied it like Jess and the Professor and a few others.
I had a book edited by our Richard (Moonman) because he was good at doing so.
POINT:- I can see a Picasso and know how it should look I can also see a Turner and understand the colours and many differing artist..
NOW:- We as poets paint with our words and these are an individual thing, Esker writes his way, as does Cat, Jess and Myself and any of the many poets we have here.
The ability to stand with them and realise that sometimes a change in a word may express their unique way, is sometimes needed, this is a critique of the content but I term this type of critique as a good thing, that we can see through their eyes and feel the message they have been giving with their own words.
All critique is welcome as long as this is what it is, in truth and learning.
As Jess says the rules are there they are guide lines as to our limits according to Form, Grammar and all things that are poetic, just let us learn to think before we add our comments to a poem no matter who it is.
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Good grief!

Sometimes we're Charlie Brown, with that proverbial football, sometimes we're Lucy, promising not to take the football away before the kick.

After awhile and most of the time (after a while) it just sounds like so much blah blah blah.

And so do our poems, if not for engaging in the critique of the content.

Aren't you glad I'm back in the mix? Lol. See you all next time.

~A

At the risk of repeating myself, Typos and bad grammer, should be brought to the author's attention. But it is the author's right to write about what ever they want. Our job is to help them to write that poem to the best of thier ability.

lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

Not all critique need be negative. The statement "Really like the way you poem addresses------------fill in the bank...using poetry" is as much a critique as "your subject matter is distasteful to me". The problem in addressing content is in being careful the the comment is focused on content Only and not on the author. The difficulty in doing one without the other is pretty tough............ and of course typos and bad grammar should also be addressed...also suggesting a mere single word change is often all that is needed to change a so-so to a very good poem (especially a shorter poem)..............stan

let's just send them back to primary school.

Let them write about roses are red, injuns too, my love is gone, I feel like poo, my baby is beautiful, oh so beautiful, she is beautiful, but she don't love me, I got the blues.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

For those unused to giving any type critique, correcting typos and grammar can be a good way to build confidence in order to eventually progress to more in depth feed back. Do you Really believe that these minor issues should Not be addressed? I expect it took even you at least 2 days before you felt comfortable with giving deep analysis lol.......stan PS many people are ,like me, unlearned in the vocabulary of technical aspects of poetry so all they can be specific about is minor typos and grammar flaws. Should they just say "I like this" or "this seems lacking" without being able to point out why? I have noticed many here slowly progressing in their skill at giving feed back; maybe they just want to advance at their own pace........but this is about METER, how the heck did this discussion drift off to critique? lol. Maybe the ones who have followed or joined in this shop will pick up a bit of the vocabulary needed to understand what makes a poem work or not work for them. I hope I have

Look at the title of this blog.

No-one said you can't correct typos.
This thread is about critiquing content, not about meter.
Everyone comments about content and should.

Do you really think you are doing anyone a favour by not commenting on content like
"roses are red, injuns too, my love is gone, I feel like poo, my baby is beautiful, oh so beautiful, she is beautiful, but she don't love me, I got the blues."? (it happens, and worse)

And if a poet posts every single poem whining about their last lost love, or any other single topic, ad nauseum, that is worthy of mention too.

Gently, of course.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Poor ol' stan done lost the thread
too much happening in his head
whose emptiness allows brain to rattle
and thus put out such silly prattle
Guess this is what I get for jumping from shop to here lol...........stan

Happens to me far too often, tabs are great but you got to be careful
cheers

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

in reference to something Stan said earlier, there is a thin line between critiquing the content and critiquing the author. As long as a critique refers to the poem and whether it needs improvement, and how that can be achieved, what ever the subject matter is, I don't have a problem.

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

"God told me to write this
All you heathens will burn in hell
God talks to me and makes me see
all Hindus, Muslims and pagans will burn"

Try not commenting this content

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

If they can't take a joke!

Eddie

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

Thank you

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

is they are serous.

Fortunately there are not many fuckwits like this left on this site.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

this is bullshit,

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

You have said all opinions are valid
Kill all Muslims.
That id an opinion

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

But you can discuss this subject all you like, people will still critique as they see fit.

Lou

Stand tall, be proud to be who you are, give the world the finger!!!!

that gave the foetus a voice? It was sick and nasty, It was one of the few times I gave the member hell for his sick content. He left. good.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

I've referred to ad nauseum Salman Rushdie's quote--our motto on Neopoet t-shirts. In the sense that a poem is so despicable, derisive and divisive that one is outraged to think that that is the poet's nexus, it all depends on how one chooses to handle it, doesn't it? Ignore it because...or condemn it loudly.

Seems to me that's a difficult thing to do. I'm confrontational In my old age, and the politics of silence
never did work, except for peaceful mass demonstrations against those who would plunder our souls.

There's a sharp edge to everything.... when does poetry become an endless pity party... "woe is me"?
Or a thinly disguised rabid preacher's pulpit? Why do we hide behind our *killer instincts* in poems? Do we write lurid and suggestive poems because we like to titillate? It's that very edge that defines us and our poetry. The two, after all that is said and done, are not inseparable, or are they?

A reality-check every once in awhile is a good thing. Is this the best we can be without looking closely at what we say and do, what we write and why we write it? Is this as far as I can go in my own evolution as a human being?

Just some thoughts I scatter....

Peace,
~A

It is meaning.We might disagree with meaning, but it is essential to poetry

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

What about critique of content being about expressing your approval or disapproval of the content? And yes, I've found some friends whose love poetry is like a box of cliche stirred with a dirty spoon, but still is poetry.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

If someone expresses hate, or the other expression of it, evangelism, give them hell!

Are we weak wimps with no opinions> Fuck no. Disagree with content especially when it is obnoxious
Someone posted a poem here called "God told me to write this".I replied, god told me to kill all nom-believers.

There is sensible, profound and serious content. There is also delusional hated based 'opinions' that mud be challenged.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Google the following lnks.

1. CONTENT AND FORM IN POETRY: Link+

1. Be Your Best: Reading Poetry
www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/markport/best/poetry.htmCached - Similar
Block all www.uncp.edu results
Finally, determine how the content and form work together to create the poem's meaning. Think of a poem as an equation: form + content = meaning. The term ...

1. Poetry analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_analysisCached - Similar
Poetry analysis is the process of investigating a poem's form, content, and history in an informed way, with the aim of heightening one's own and others' ...

GESTALT ;
1. What is Gestalt? Poetry from Uruguay
www.g-gej.org/3-3/poetryen.htmlCached - Similar
Block all www.g-gej.org results
Nov 19, 2003 – Poetic description of the existential impact of Gestalt values in South America.

the meaning has changed in common usage and I define it as "A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts"

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

It makes sense, but how do we realize this, not so much in critique, but in the creation of an art form?

Joe

P.S> I left the links with no comment. They are clear.

No, seriously, what I mean is that the elements of a poem can achieve something far greater than its parts. You can't choose to write it, it is just one of those magical things that happens sometimes when we write

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

Yep. just like my own poetry [ big grin]. At least. hopefully, we all are getting some better understsnding of these things. Have a good one.

joe

www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/markport/best/poetry.htmCached - didn't work. The other link was to Univerity of Carolina home page.
www.g-gej.org r not found. nor www.g-gej.org/3-3/poetryen.htmlCached

What is poetry without content? Spelling, punctuation and grammar, even those constitute a polemic.

Yes, we must tread a fine line between critting content and critting poet. Yet a few years ago a born again Christian posted a vile poem giving a voice to the foetus of a rape victim. I attacked both poem and poet and would do it again.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

author comment

A simpler understanding of the term [for me, a least]:

[singular] psychology : something that is made of many parts and yet is somehow more than or different from the combination of its parts

Maybe the word synergy would work better then gestalt in application to poetry being more than the sum of its parts.........stan

I'm so confused. I think I am having s synergetic Gestalt ! Good golly, miss Molly! I think we should just rate a poem on a scale of 1-10 and be done with it

Joe :)

I have a better idea, Joe. Let's post poems and hope for the best...the gestalt of poetic expertise from both the reader and the poet, themselves.

~A

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! [ambulance,straight jacket, tranquilizer]

Don't worry Joe. For some, being driven crazy is a short trip lmao...............stan

I thought that was what we were doing here, if not I like that idea. (on the same page)

Eddie
...

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

:-) :-) :-)

and a wink.

Life is a long walk off a short pier.....or is it a short walk off a long pier? I'll never know the difference.

~A

perception is everything. this is the Glass half full or half empty. empty or full just give me the water to drink. the thirst for knownledge.

Eddie,
lots of respect to you!

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

Knowledge turned to action is wisdom.

May we all become wise as children.

~A

We should be so innocent and lucky.
Eddie

LIFE ISN'T ABOUT WAITING FOR THE STORM TO PASS
IT'S ABOUT LEARNING HOW TO DANCE IN THE RAIN.
VIVIAN GREENE

I've found that I cannot ignore a poems content. It's like trying to fix a car without taking note of what it looks like; its brand, colour and all. No matter what the mechanics are like, structure and all, unless it is very queer, the content must be looked at.

Just wanted to say so.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

http://www.wsgeorge.com/

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