I think that would be a good solution to the current critiquing issue. :-D Btw - any idea when the workshops are going to be set up? Is that something that will be coming after the site goes live?

I am aware of 1 poet who has more or less abandoned this site due to the apparent conflict you describe. I wonder how many more may follow if more tolerance is not injected into the public side of Neopoet. I have yet to receive negative feedback on any comments I've made on others' works, but I guess some have. Are any workshops up and running? I may be considered to be among the casual writers here, but I still desire feedback in an environment sans bickering and unfeeling comments..................scribbler

*Both groups* hardly seems like folks who are the same page, However, that folks in both groups and are aware of which *group* they feel they themselves belong, is quite a solid beginning, imo.

Thank you for your observation, Rett. It shows the mark of having taken responsibility for
one's own shortcomings. And we most certainly have them. Not one of is without them,
that makes us all perfectly unique. So there never needs to be stone-throwing and mudslinging, so to speak.

That this is a poetry group, a *family of poets* is indicative of the fact that we can argue,
we can agree to disagree. I feel badly for the one who left the site, that, imo, is someone
who fears any criticism, and disagreement and/or is just too perfect for our group.

Sadly.

~A

This tool bar in the middle of my page is annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't see what I already wrote!

It seems as though your thought here is to make stream
a posting area, instead of part of the workshop that Neo is
supposed to be ... Now if what you are saying is Neopoet
is a workshop with some advanced workshop area's in the
works, then I'm all for that.

I can only offer my opinion, but I feel that if anyone posts
their poems here, they have already made the decision to
have their posts critiqued, if they have read the guidelines
anyway. There are already options they can choose as to
the level of critique they want, and there is always the option
to ask for definitive help with wording or punctuation or
whatever they may need/want help with.

None of that excuses any personal attacks, not that I've seen
any, but I have seen some discussions getting a bit heated.
A family of poets seems to be the right phrase, there are always
some heated discussions going on in my family, but we're still
family.

Speaking of critics or critiques, Kal/Theo is still trying to return to the NEW NEOPOET, and hasn't been able to. Can you assist him and others who are trying?

Elsewhere, we're talking about gaining/soliciting for new members when the old ones can't seem to return.

HELP!

~A

I think your suggestion makes sense. But we need to make sure that the workshops are well monitored so that it doent turn into a free for all where people make personal remarks in the guise of what consider good comment.

Lou

Hello Rett

While I have been away due to family and self constraints I have had time to reflect alot about writing. That is writing poetry and other areas of writing, such as novels, creative writing and so on. I just want to throw in something here I just thought might be of possible interest to someone.

Maybe three workshops

1. Basic
2. Intermediate
3. Advanced

From my own experiences I also believe it would help the new writer to read up on poetry as much as they can.

The Basic Class would be for the new writers or writers that have been gone for a while.

The Intermediate Class could be after the basics have been established and the writer and mentor feel comfortable with going forward in their writing.

The Advanced Class would be for authors who still are honing in their skill but have the basic and intermediate status behind them.

Some writers may never accomplish all of these but it is the basics to start. I just thought I would throw this thought in here.

I reiterate my thoughts here. A writer can not solely depend on one site to learn all there is to learn about writing poetry or any works of words. They can click on the internet to read up on writing poetry and get the basics down and practice, practice. The most important thing found to do was to read others, and also some of the great poets of the past. I then tried to help others in a way they would understand what I was saying and in hopes they would either agree or if they didn't that was purely their choice. Sometimes I never got a response back but that was fine also. A silent comment back means to me that they did not want to comment for fear to hurt my feelings and/or they did not like what I had to say.

Either way is fine by me, but a common courtesy to a critique or reviewer would be to acknowledge you even read it and if you did not agree be polite and say why or something.
No one person here is holding a gun so to speak to make anyone change anything. They are here to help for they may be an advanced writer and who better to learn from then someone who has been there. Just as a new writer is or was.

I am not advising anyone to do as I say but in sharing my own experiences I found out that by self learning the ropes and applying them as I go has really helped me. I think it would be beneficial to anyone who is serious about their writing to learn all they can and to be able to take the critiques in the stride they are given. Practice, practice and more practice. And yes try to be more tolerant of styles and writers. Some can not take a critique for it makes them feel bad. I found out you have to accept the good and the bad in order to learn anything. An editor will tell you that right out front. So if you are working on publishing you should make it the best and take all the advice that is given if it applys to your work.

Not everyone has to agree, but we can agree to be disagreeable and move forward. I should hope. Too many times in this site folks get stuck in a tit for tat and let's get tat back. It is inconclusive to learning and does nothing, just creates animosity between members. Enough said here as I do not even care to delve into any of the past behaviors or actions here. I can be here to help but I am not here to decipher who is right and who is wrong. I believe in staying on the same page the best you can in any given setting and learning as you go for that is what this is about. Not everyone will call you pretty or like you and that is fine too. We are not here for popularity contest. We are here to write and learn.

In my own testimonial here, had I never opened this site page almost two years ago, I probably would still be using repetiton of words and not making any sense. Hence, I learned from alot of experienced and advanced writers in here. This is not to say I am advanced in any writing for that matter but I like to think I am in between the basics and intermediate levels.

Everyone is responsible for their writing and if they do have a sincere passion to learn and grow with their chosen skill then they need to know they have to work at it to perfect or polish it up. It may not be easy, but it can be done. It is not handed to anyone. So the oneself needs to start wherever they feel they have a need and are stumbling. Do some research and be thankful for the ones that are offering some insight into your writings. I know I did and was thankful for those harsh critics, for what they were telling me was the absolute truth agreed or disagreed. I used what I thought was prevalent and then precided to learn from them the best way I could.

Hence, my learning began right here on Neopoet. And I do not regret it one bit. If I sound preachy here I don't mean to. It is just me writing words on a page for others to read, taken as verbatim or thrown away as trash. This is my right to write and not all will agree. I can handle that too:) No feelings hurt any which way.

These are just my thoughts given here to ponder over if you want. Just suggestions and thoughts. That is all for today. Miss you Texan:) Miss the chat too!!

Hope all is well by you and the familia

Blessings
Mona

I don't necessarily want to participate in a workshop--time constraints are a problem--but would still like some decent feedback in the stream. Also, I'm not sure your division will eliminate the problem. Part of the reason people take offense may be that they think they're in a skill category they are not. I like the level of critique categories. Maybe "I want the raw truth" could be amended to "and I will not complain about any criticism that refrains from personal attack." I, however, will continue down the road of constructive moderation.

I think it is a good idea, to have a general stream for newcomers, social and casual poets, and also workshops for those desiring to improve their poetry.

Most new members will naturally tend towards the general stream. Those who become familiar with the site and wish to improve their poetry will then start entering workshops, and get more "serious".

I would also suggest that members with more experience in how things work regularly give criticisms - milder and supportive criticisms - to those posting in the general stream, particularly new members. Then, with positive responses, we can "introduce" the newbies to the workshop concept. We are a workshop; the general stream should not be seen as a bucket in which to abandon the smaller and inedible fish! Heehee.

As you say, people are very protective of their poetry, especially those who are young, or with little experience. Or those unable to handle heavy criticism. After a while, however, with the right coaxing, a percentage of newcomers will see the benefit of having someone offering opinions, help, encouragement, and much harsher/detailed criticism, and I believe they will then migrate to workshops.

I would also suggest that more experienced poets who have benefitted greatly from Neopoet - people like you and I - post poetry in the general stream, and let newbies know that what skills we have are due to the site and our fellow members.

Or perhaps highlight poems that have already been worked on in workshops, and are considered good examples of workshop output?

We could flag workshop poems as completed, and allow authors to display them in the general stream if desired, or in a separate panel/frame beside the stream, to show newbies the benefits of joining workshops. We could list what workshop a poem came from, what the workshop is all about, have a byline from the author with a few words on how the workshop helped her or him, and a line or two about who to contact to join that workshop. This might be a good way to promote workshops.

Also, to encourage workshop participation, might it be a good idea to limit the life of a poem in the general stream? Members' work would still be accessible from their home page, it would not be deleted, just no longer viewable in the general stream, after a period of time. I have no opinion on this last one, it is just a sudden random thought.

for us to post all categories of our poetry, one for workshopping and the other for stream, instead of using the blog to share other poems because they aren't the type to be workshopped. This saves us from having to cross lines and seeking other poetry sites to post and interact on "non-neopoet" poems, which by observation and experience are many.