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Community discussion - AC proposal: The Lab (June 2018)

Note: the AC has reposted this in a new thread: https://www.neopoet.com/forum/25082. Comments are closed on this old thread.

Original text:

This is the discussion thread for the recent proposal by the AC (https://www.neopoet.com/community/news/proposal-the-lab)

“The Lab”

[Note - this first paragraph was updated on June 23rd]

This is proposal to create a different and unique workshop called "the Lab".  Poems posted in the Lab will also appear on the Stream, but with special status.  They will be by poets who have offered thoughtful comments to submissions in the Lab  (praise, critical reviews, suggestions etc). The goal is to encourage responses, which is the best reward and feedback all of us poets can receive from an online workshop.  The lab is open to all.  Here's how it works:

Details:

About “The Lab”

  • Poems in The Lab would still go to the stream and would act like any other poem. Neopoet would try to make poems in The Lab especially visible however - this may take the form of color coding, a badge, a special front page block that shows several recent submissions to The Lab, etc.

Submitting to “The Lab”

  • In exchange for 3 “credits” a member can submit to “The Lab” – to be detailed later in this proposal
  • Submissions to The Lab will only be allowed every few days (initially once per 5 days; threshold can be changed by a vote of the AC).
    • The existing 1 (non workshop) poem per 23 hours limit will be unchanged – for a submission to The Lab, essentially the more restrictive of the two would apply. For example, after posting a poem to The Stream, one could post to The Lab a day later. A day after that, one wouldn’t be able to post to the Lab again, however one could still submit a second poem to The Stream.
  • There will be a checkbox in the current "submit poem" page that will opt a poem into "The Lab" (near the options for contests, workshops, co-author)

“Credits”

  • When members post comments (on any poem – including poems in The Stream or in specific workshop), they get 1 credit per comment/critique
    • Exceptions:
      • Posting a comment on your own poem
      • In addition, the AC may vote internally on new conditions from time to time, such as a word count limit
  • Over time, the AC will define the qualitative and quantitative (such as word count) eligibility for a credit - initially the bar will be set fairly low (i.e. all substantial comments are eligible)
    • In cases of specific and repeated abuse, the AC can restrict a member's eligibility to submit to The Lab, either temporarily or permanently
  • In time [this may not be part of the initial implementation due to the complexity] Advocates (and the submitter for a particular comment) can see if a comment has earned a credit. Advocates can "downvote" a comment if it is deemed not eligible according to qualitative criteria set by the AC - a certain number of downvotes will cause that comment to lose eligibility (and the owner to lose a credit)
  • Each existing member starts with a blank slate: zero credits. Comments start accruing credits when the proposal is implemented
  • Each new member starts with a number of credits to be determined by the AC - initially, as an experiment, we will test 3 credits, and will then test zero credits, to see how this affects new member retention

 

[Update: we've added an example timeline that showing a member, who is trying to aggressively post as much as possible, would be limited by both the "23 hour" rule and the 5 day timer - this illustration assumes the member is not limited by credits] Example timeline: https://www.neopoet.com/sites/default/files/faq/TheLab-TheStream-Timelin...

With The Lab and The Stream, any members who just want to post to the Stream and who don't care about credits or who don't want to be required a mimimum of quality or quantity of comments won't be affected as long as they don't opt in.

Only people who opt in will be affected? Is that correct?

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

The original stream will not be
affected. Members will earn credits
when they comment/critique and can
use them to post in "The Lab", but it
is voluntary.

author comment

Thank you for answering.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

While it's good to see that the proposal to find a way to encourage critique is now getting crystalized, i have a couple of queries:-

1. Since both routine submissions to stream and to The Lab are to be governed by the same point credit systems, why have them as separate? An example would help for better comprehension
2. Will it be difficult to explain this to new entrants and who would be explaining this to them?
......................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

I can answer who and how it would be explained to new members. We have guides/greeters who welcome each new member individually. Once the details are all sorted, the guides could work together with the AC to develop a short and simplified explanation for the Lab to share with new incoming members when they are greeted.

It would be no trouble at all to have a standard explanation or to allow greeters to choose their own phrasing if they prefer. We can also develop a little "How-To" resource for the Curated Resources page to explain how The Lab works and how to participate. Then it would as simple as sharing a link with new members that directs them to this tutorial.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

That sounds good to me Kelsey leaving open my first query about what distinguishes poems in The Lab w.r.t. those like we do now in the stream. An example would help in comprehension
............................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

The difference is the focus. On the
regular stream you can still post daily,
in the "Lab", the focus is critique and
hopefully a more intense version of it
by all that attend.

author comment

does it mean that only the poems in the Lab when critiqued would be eligible for earning credit points and not the poems from stream which are critiqued?
.................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Mark L for giving your take on this.

appreciated...

raj (sublime_ocean)

Credits are not required for posts to The Stream

I see nearly 200 poems in the undiscovered work and it is pretty surprising to me that many poems of Esker are lying their...would critiquing poems there be eligible for credit points? Please be patient with my queries answers to which I think would benefit others too
..........................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Yes, any poem (except your own) will
accrue credits.

author comment

can I re post the poems submitted till now in stream to the Lab stream so that they get critiqued?
...............................................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

This isn't a magical fix. We are attempting
to stimulate more participation which will
still rely on members interest.
I'm not sure if re-posting is an option, I
don't see why not, you will have to try it
and let us know.

author comment

and see how it pans out..pardon me if I sound stupid. If criteria for credit is same for both regular stream and The Lab stream ,,,it beats me why have this new category...best thing is to lie low till things settle down
......................................................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Thank you for all the clarification. It sounds like the Lab will be a good way for members to distinguish that they want to participate in reciprocal critiquing/willing to post less and comment more. We would need to make it clear that any time a person wants to mark their poem for The Lab that they cannot also mark "Not actively editing" or "please use care" under the review requests.

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

From what Andrew has mentioned credits shall not be there for those who critique poems in stream. From that I believe credits shall be given for critiquing only those poems posted in The Lab.

I may clarify that what I mean about reposting existing poems in The Lab is with reference to those poems which fall under undiscovered work....mine have already caught that dreaded flu which wasn't the case hitherto :)
........................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

That isn't what Andrew said. He said
credits wouldn't be "required" in the regular
stream, which means they aren't required
to post there, they are still earned there, to
be used in the "lab" or not, it is up to you.

It is a voluntary post, why would we move
undiscovered works to a volunteer position?
Maybe I'm not understanding your question?

author comment

thanks Richard

raj (sublime_ocean)

Happy to do it. Rula suggested it in the first "encouraging more critique" forum and I was willing (always am), but also able for once! So the workshop absolutely goes hand in hand with this forum proposal.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

I guess she could be busy with Ramdan which ended yesterday so expect her to be back soon.
.......................................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

We have all worked long and hard on how to encourage critique without becoming fascist and limiting.
This proposal only adds to Neopoet, it in no way limits member participation in any way. Neopoet effectively remains unchanged except for those who want to give and receive more in terms of critique. As such I don't think it requires a referendum, as adding Workshops didn't. It only adds options.

I might add that it also invigorates the spirit of Neopoet. I will always greet and check out new members, offer my services as Mentor, run Workshops and generally serve Neopoet in any capacity but now there will be a place where my poetry and critique will be appreciated and reciprocated by colleagues equally committed to the community.

I love it!

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

to enjoy
NEO POETS HAS TAUGHT ME SO MUCH
I NEED NOT
project myself
any more
thanks to
jess
I must fulfill
Neo's need

Since I only comment on poems requesting Harsh Feedback, at least this will give me a place where I can expect a dialogue.

My general rule of thumb is that if I see any comments on a poem, I pass it by and instead look through the undiscovered work for those iems requesting harsh feedback.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Moore

Maybe I've missed something. Just what is the advantage of posting in the lab?

Stream will be neopoet present day

Will be a second level to Neopoet requires three coomments and yo can post every five days
Advantage is you would get more critique

only once in five days? that's intriguing
.............................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Can the same poem be posted on both stream and lab on the same day?

As I understand it; the 24hr rule applies,
once a day you can post. You can choose
to use that in the Lab or regular stream.
Only in side workshops are the rules laxed
to post for a particular one.

author comment

who is correct you or Mark?

It's both 3 credits and 5 days? Or is it "we'll give you five days to earn the 3 credits, but if you get those three credits in 1 or 2 days, you can post to lab again"?

I've mentioned before that I don't post enough poems to have a personal concern with amount of credit or daily limits. I'll never hit a limit, but some more prolific folks may wonder.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Thanks Kelsey for voicing the query...i will wait for the response...
...........................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Ok, It is all relative. It is still a once a day
rule, now you can earn credits by commenting.
The credits are used for posting in the Lab.
If you post in the regular Stream your once a
day rule is used. If you post in the Lab, your
once a day is used. Tomorrow, you can post
again on the regular stream but in the Lab, there
is a 5 day waiting period and for now, a three credit
cost to post.
The credits are earned by commenting/critiquing
poetry in either format.

author comment

Thanks Richard for putting things in a proper comprehensible perspective...now waiting to have the first bite at The Lab :)
..........................................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Waiting period and cost of credit. Makes sense now. Would give everyone ample time to offer more thorough critique. Perfect!

Thank you,
Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

"The Stream" would include all poems in The Lab. One also cannot post to Neopoet more than once per day, so this would not be possible.

Thanks Andrew for providing an important insight into things to come...
..................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Is there a date set to roll this out? i think once that is done it would resolve the queries over a period of time...
.........................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

We wanted to let everyone know raj,
it is a major change here. Andrew is
a wizard, but patience is a virtue.
Give him time.

author comment

True that it must be involving a lot of work for Andrew and his team ..just wanted to know the tentative roll out plan ..if it is weeks or days away....so that until then we can lye low....
............................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

if I have sounded like an advocate representing others I apologize...that wasn't my intent...may be my bad language gave you that impression....
..............................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

Which of you is right? Is it one per day period whether in lab or stream or on the days when one pasts to lab can they also post to stream?

It is still one per day and one would have to choose between stream or lab? That's fine by me . Just wanted it to be clarified before launch

That is how it is supposed to be
and I'm pretty sure Andrew can set
it up that way but I am not one to
discount Murphy's Law.

author comment

It will be nice to know every poem posted will expect forthright critique.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Moore

and like the new proposal. It should definitely bring more and better critique. I do wish to add a comment. There are some people here [ myself included ] that are tongue-tied when it comes to use of proper terms and don't want to offer critique that sounds amateurish. Remember, that when you offer critique, you are giving your opinion and as a poet, your opinion means something. Your suggestions and critique may not be taken advantage of, but the poet, may see some value in what you say. ~ Geezer.
.

Please acknowledge critique and comments.
They are a vital part of our community!
Critique or comment today!

This feeling you described, and having the proper terms, is what my current workshop is all about! Maybe at the conclusion I can put together a recap and FAQ based on where the discussion leads that could help others who feel this way but who aren't able to join the workshop.

Kelsey

Critique, don't comment.
Community guidelines: https://www.neopoet.com/community-guidelines

To see our learning resources, click the "Curated Resources" link under the Resources tab in the top menu bar.

www.lettereddandy.xyz

Kelsey's new workshop 'The Great, Big, All-Inclusive Critique Workshop' covers everything you ever wanted to know about giving 'giving', constructive, helpful critique.

Don't be put off by the optional extra reading, if you just join the workshop and participate you will learn how to be kind and helpful and sound professional at the same time.
Do not miss it.

cheers,
Jess
Neopoet is a workshop. Poets take the time to read and think about your work and offer suggestions.
There is no obligation to make any changes however please acknowledge critique and comments.

I read Andrew's clarification that only new words in the comment will count. However for example i wish to point out comments by Mario which are lengthy but more often than not they are out of context w.r.t. the poem he comments upon and to me appear as if they are copy pasted from a bank of pre prepared comments.....

I know this is an exceptional situation yet wanted to bring it to the notice how mere quantity [new words] would qualify such members to The Lab
.................................................................................

raj (sublime_ocean)

First of all, it's not cool to complain
about other members in public.

When this begins, there won't be a
number you'll have to meet to count
as a comment ... we reserve the right
to alter that if deemed necessary.

author comment

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