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Demons in the Rough-(Shark Pool submission).

Should you wander out
amidst nights' "twilight time",
it can end up going one of two ways;

if you fail to notice,
which would be a major crime;
youll have to wait, and see how the evening...plays.

Should you venture into
this "twilight force",
I can't emphasize this, nearly enough;

your existence will completely change,
and that's just "par for the course";
those, are your demons in the rough!

And, you're all completely aware
that ordinary eyes,
will never witness, and record all that occurs;

those visual discernments,
are rewards for the one who still, tries;
regardless, of what either night offers.

So, all first impressions
are the everlasting ones...too,
which could easily point out the, "right stuff";

take nothing for granted,
now, your fears are completely in view;
and those, are your demons in the rough!

Style / type: 
Structured: Western
Review Request (Intensity): 
I want the raw truth, feel free to knock me on my back
Review Request (Direction): 
Is the internal logic consistent?
Last few words: 
Shark Pool submission.
Editing stage: 

Comments

I don't really feel I can crit the style of this as western is not something I do or read that much of, Pamela is the form princess so she will know better than I of the logistics of this write and its rhyme. It appears to the uninitiated that it works well but I must admit to it still being a little too wordy and tells rather than shows. I feel some of the filler words I would take out but I realised for meter you may have them in. I will come back once a more learned person with rhyme has discussed the syllable , rhyme and rhythm with you. For I would hate to be saying take things out when things are needed to make it melodic.

Chez
"The perfect woman perpetrates literature as she does a small sin: as an experiment, in passing, to see if anybody notices it - and to makes sure that somebody does." - Nietzsche

at the beginning of your comment is cowardice. You are not taking resposibility for your comment.
What do you think of the meaning and intent of this poem?
I happen to know Doc is very experienced and can write in any form he chooses.
What filler words word you take out?
"tells rather than shows" is the best thing you said.

Please do not insult yourself or the the Shark Pool by self deprecation in your comments.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

It's called being polite and inviting Doc to have a say which he did not, I have if you scroll down provided a more opinionated thought of his poem further on, I don't jump off the pier without a lifejacket. If Doc had answered with how western structure is written I then would have given him more feedback which I have sought to do so now. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater Jess, softly doesn't hurt anyone in my experience.

Chez
"The perfect woman perpetrates literature as she does a small sin: as an experiment, in passing, to see if anybody notices it - and to makes sure that somebody does." - Nietzsche

It's called being polite and inviting Doc to have a say which he did not, I have if you scroll down provided a more opinionated thought of his poem further on, I don't jump off the pier without a lifejacket. If Doc had answered with how western structure is written I then would have given him more feedback which I have sought to do so now. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater Jess, softly doesn't hurt anyone in my experience.

Chez
"The perfect woman perpetrates literature as she does a small sin: as an experiment, in passing, to see if anybody notices it - and to makes sure that somebody does." - Nietzsche

Hi Chez

I think qualifying your response is acceptable as a lead in. I am STILL wondering what the HECK Western Classic or Western Structured means - the terminology escapes me.
You touch on several good points, the show not tell as well as the wordiness of the piece. In poetry, rhyme or not, brevity is key.

All in all - you gave this writer an opportunity to respond which assisted you in giving a more thorough critique later on. That's good for a poetry site when you have interaction, but in a printed medium, this poem will get a review and any response will fall on deaf ears. There will be only one chance to give the writer everything he/she needs to learn and improve.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

First off let me thank you for submitting to the "Shark Pool",
it shows that you are serious about writing and critiques.

This poem, I didn't like it and let me tell you why. It isn't the
meter, which seems to be off, I didn't count syllables and it
could be just the punctuation that makes it appear that way,
but it is the content. I believe what you are saying here is to
watch it if you go out at midnight, but you allude to there being
two different nights, which I didn't see, and after reading it twice
and then thrice, I didn't even care anymore.

You have pointed out that "these are your demons in the rough"
Sorry, but I don't see what the demons are.

I think this could be improved with a clearer vision of what it is
you are trying to say, and say it.

thanks for posting

Richard

Hi Richard

I think you make a great point by telling this writer that the subject matter needs to be much clearer.

However, your first two paragraphs are unnecessary. Doc knows he is serious about honest critique by the simple fact that he posted to this forum. No need to say it.

The second paragraph is too conversational. Write with clear and complete sentences. This writer is being critiqued on his writing skills. Your response should be as polished as you wish the poem to be.

I understand that this will be viewed as a credible review by the writer because there is a relationship between the two of you. However, this forum is as much about GIVING a critique as well as receiving one. Give this poet as much poise and precision in your critique as you are asking to be provided in the poem.

All in all, you have given this writer feedback for improvement, and I like it that you thank him for posting, but a more polished review should have been provided.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

Hi Doc, for me this is a perfect example of how a poem can get *lost* in the form into which it is *squeezed*.

Let the demon out, Doc!!!!

I'll be very pleased to see this rewritten without the straight-jacket of form. I do, however, envy and
admire those poets who use the myriad of poetic forms to encapsulate their work.

Thanks for submitting Doc.

~A

Hi Anna,

I think you make a great point about squeezing a topic into a form. Form has its constraints which makes it all that much more difficult to get a message across without losing it.

The subject matter in this piece is broad and I think you are right to suggest to the poet that he/she find a way to write it in free verse. However, if he/she chooses to keep it in form, you rightly say that a lot of honing will be necessary to 'get to the point'.

I still stick to the theory that one critique for each poem should be adhered to; posted when the reader has had adequate time to formulate their thoughts completely around the work.

We are lucky to be in a forum environment where the feedback received can be used to add suggestions or thoughts for improvement in additional reviews. Still, I think we should gear our responses with the idea that we only get one shot to provide our writer with the best possible critique we can provide.

Good ideas that this writer will use and think on, but in conjunction with the intent of this workshop, a more concise and professional review is in order.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

Hi Kal,

You have nailed the pitfalls in this piece to the point of asking why anyone would want to read this. You are to the point, well spoken, visual and emotional in your review. All of those points are to the author's benefit and probably the kind of professional review this poem might receive in the print media.

I would only change the opening sentence and omit "ok..."

Well done.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

So far, all the critiques that have been placed in evidence say pretty much the same thing, and I can fault no one; everyone stated in their own style and manner how far removed we were from the poem, as there was nothing here by which we were *hooked*.

You have exhibited far better *tricks*, imo. As a Magician, you can pull many rabbits (poems) from your hat, and this one needs to go back to the tailor and then the dry cleaner for a complete refitting and cleaning.

Thanks Doc., Are we still waiting for Pamela before we move on?

~A

About poetry in the second person? Most readers will turn off immediately, as from a sermon. We are not preachers or politicians, we seek to influence and change, surely, but by poetry, not sermonising.

The "demon in the rough" as far as I can ascertain, is pretty much better told by the parable of "The Good Samaritan" in the bible or the statements of Martin Luther King "we shall remembered not for the cruelty of bad people but the silence of the good".

See? Sermons have all been done before, and better. Poetry evokes rather than tells.
Frankly Doc, I dismiss this poem out of hand, and, considering our long term critical relationship I am disappointed you thought it even worthy of presenting to the Shark Pool.

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Hi Jess,

You make some very strong suggestions to this writer about how this poem will be perceived by a reader. This is valuable information to the writer and I am certain improvements will be made as a result.

However, I would suggest that you take your personal writing relationship with this author out of the critique for the sake of credibility. Dismiss the poem out of hand due to the content, not due to your long term critical relationship with this author.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

I think Kal gave this a great critique, the first part of this poem is the weaker link, to grab someone and lure them into reading a poem the beginning must be the strongest, I don't think this is so here. I find it bland and 'night's twilight time' is awkward and to me rather cliche and boring. It doesn't grab me at all. I must admit that I found it hard after that to even keep plodding on through this and perhaps each stanza needs to be edited accordingly. The idea of nights twilight can evoke some great metaphor I can think of off the top of my head...the colors, the cooling of a day's heat, the sounds of the ensuing night..there are many ways you could go with that. Give it some more thought.

As I said Kal's crit was spot on, Ana I feel needs some more gumption to say more, it's fine if she admires your style but the idea of this is to provide accountable critiques and offer advice, whether you take it then is up to you and Jess I don't know whether being completely dismissive falls into that category either. Just saying....

Chez
"The perfect woman perpetrates literature as she does a small sin: as an experiment, in passing, to see if anybody notices it - and to makes sure that somebody does." - Nietzsche

Let's just talk about *styles* of critiques. I zero into the methodology inherent in the poet..... how some folks don't know how to *let go* and remain inside the lines of their art, fearing to venture out of their comfort zones....or try to squeeze their thoughts into a particular*form*.

I appreciate the ability of some poets to write in dozens of styles, however, I have also seen some of the same poets to not be *proficient and expert* in even one form be it rhyme, free verse, etc.; I have seen the reverse to be equally true, some of us are very capable in our own styles, and rarely try other styles; why fix what ain't broken, so to speak....unless it's to enjoy our ventures.

I can give examples in today's poems, but the poets/poems are not part of the *shark pool*.

~Anna

I love the phrase "Demons in the Rough" and I think you do too. If one reads this piece aloud, with a bit of a sinister tone, it has kind of a creepy feel, but ultimately, it is all tell and no show. I think a lot more could have been done with this phrase than the introduction of first impressions as an all or nothing situation.

The rhyme is a bit mediocre and the meter is inconsistent. To keep this poem metered rhyme, one needs a bit more complex rhyme, more meat and a lot less fluff. Bring out the emotion and pull your reader in. You can do it and you have a great phrase to work with.

The poem needs to say something more and be expanded on that topic. I want to come out of this feeling like I know all about my demons in the rough. I come out of this saying, Ok, so first impressions really matter. Well, I already knew that – so what?

All in all, you have a great line to expand upon and play with. I love that. I do think you could take this down a more ominous path that captivates your reader and reels him in for the final blow.

Thank you for the opportunity to absorb your words. ~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

To be fair, I have only two pet peeves when reading a poem for the first time and this poem crossed them both. So, though I didn't have a particularly negative view of the piece, neither was I, on past the first few lines, in the right frame of mind to enjoy it. I lump them together.
The first is the simplest and I think the single most preventable failure in a poem. Typographical error. The second being grammatical faux pas. The typo is merely sloppy, but my worst fear (in regards this poem) is that what I would consider a typo is actually grammatical. I believe the poet has used the semi-colon in places where it is not reasonable and the comma simply too much.
Now beyond that, I have trouble with the poet regarding the poem as "structured: western". The piece made use of a consistent meter through most of it, but I felt the meter was occasionally abandoned when it was convenient. This does not destroy the poem, but it is frustrating and draws from what I think was an attempt at a gently rolling piece. Almost a song like warning or reprimand from our "better" telling us what to beware "in us".
The rhyme structure is curious and of all the aspects in this poem, my favorite. The slightly unconventional rhyme placement as used, I think, effectively "hides" the rhyme giving the poem that "musical feel" without an obvious cause and effect.
However, these are technical, good and bad. I don't much care for the poem because it is difficult to understand. This is not to say it can't be. After four or five careful readings I "got" the gist of it all. But therein lies my problem. I don't want to read a poem twice unless the language has just blown me away and I need to "hear" the words again. After reading this poem the first time, my response was the most highly critical comment I have to offer any piece- "Huh?"
I have been told by poets whose opinion I don't just dismiss out of hand that a poet who makes the reader work hard is a poor poet. I don't accept this. If a writer of any sort can cause his/her reader to put forth some effort to obtain the inherent "message" in a work, I think that writer has done what an artist (in most cases) desires to do in the first place- move his/her audience. This should be done when offering a deeper, perhaps controversial thought buried inside something simpler. To make me work to understand something at face value is unforgivable. Though I scraped a lot of what was inferred, I never did truly understand what the poet meant by Demon's in the Rough. It may be my sensibilities or that I'm just that obtuse, but I think not.
All in all, a rather clumsy entrant and by the evidence of other posts the poet has submitted as well as the opinions stated above, not very "par for the course".
wesley

W. H. Snow

A poet is a nightingale, who sits in darkness and sings to cheer its own solitude with sweet sounds. Percy Bysshe Shelley

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Hi Wesley

Welcome to The Shark Pool.

Overall, I think you make some very valid points in your critique. A piece that lacks basic spelling, punctuation and grammatical rules (unless done intentionally) will find a reputable publisher tossing this piece into the circular file without a second thought.

You touch on structure as a strong point which offers some redemption for the work and the possibility of turning this into a much stronger poem. Ultimately, you find clarity the biggest downfall and let this writer know as much.

I would caution against wordiness and keep future critiques a bit more concise but all in all you have offered this writer a solid critique.

~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

want to have your say and make any revisions?

cheers,
Jess
A new workshop on the most important element of poetry-
'Rhythm and Meter in Poetry'
https://www.neopoet.com/workshop/rhythm-and-meter-poetry

Workshop Critique: The Shark Pool is open

Hi Doc,
First your rhyme-pattern: +/a/b - +/a/b - +/c/d - +/c/D - +/e/f - +/e/g - +/h/d - +/h/D
("occurs" doesn't rhyme with "offers").
I felt that in your poem you used too many quation marks, it gives an impression you're not sure about your wording. I like the theme, but you explore not enough the senses, since twilight stands for altering light, you could show more of your experience, instead to switch to second person. A few phrases doesn't make sense to me, like "which would be a major crime", and, "your existence will completely change". The demon-theme is good, although there's a missing link in metaphorally way with de twilight. Perhaps dig the magical atmosphere. Hope this will help a little.
Greetings,
Erwin

(a poem a day keeps the doctor away)

Hi Erwin

I feel you have touched on some valuable points to help this writer improve this poem. I understand there is a bit of a language barrier here, but be careful with spelling and grammar in your reviews.

"quation" should be "quotation".
"de twilight. Perhaps dig the magical” - "de twilight" and "dig" left me a bit confused.

All in all, yours was a fairly good review for our writer. Thank you. ~Pamela

.. .

~"It's ALL about the Poetry~

Please join us in The Shark Pool

profusely. limited time on a laptop w/a keyboard problem...thus, the typos!
I'm entering it, nw.
Sorry, my friend.
doc.

Neopoet is "newtriffic" !
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