About workshops

Workshops on Neopoet are groups that meet for a certain period of time to focus on a certain aspect of poetry. Each workshop participant is asked to critique all the other poems submitted into a workshop. A workshop leader helps coordinate -- they set the agenda, give participants feedback on whether their submissions and critique are at they level expected of them, and after the workshop is over, give feedback to participants. 

To join a workshop, first find one that is of interest to you. Once you have found the right workshop (and verified that it is open -- you can find this out in the description below), you can apply to join the workshop.


Join the Neopoet online poetry workshop and community to improve as a writer, meet fellow poets, and showcase your work. Sign up, submit your poetry, and get started.

GREAT POETRY (a workshop)

Status: 
Program description/goal: 

Description:This is going to be a different type shop. Instead of writing poetry or learning definitions and stuff, we're going to Think. We're going to attempt to determine the difference between good and great poetry
Leader: Stan Holliday (scribbler)
Moderator(s): weirdelf (Jess)

Objectives: To better our own poetry by discussing what makes a poem great

Level of expertise: Open to all

Subject matter:
1.We will each pick a poem by a famous poet which we think is great
2, each member will then be prepared to say exactly why he/she thinks said poem is great
3. Each member then must be prepared to "defend" hisor her poem

Then we'll do all three over again..............but this time the poems chosen must have been written by a Neopoet member

Length: 
30 days
Number of participants (limit): 
20 people
Skill level: 
Date: 
Saturday, January 19, 2013 to Tuesday, February 19, 2013
Short description: 
see above

Comments

You'll be most welcome to join if time permits or just drop in from time to time if it doesn't............stan

author comment

on this thread, about what makes a poem great.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

I hope so. I'm thinking that just thinking about and discussing great poetry will result in all who join (especially me) along the path to writing better poetry. The discussion will also probably not be able to avoid technical issues and thus expose us to a review of them also in an indirect way.............stan

author comment

Looks fantastic

Jenifer

Havent done one of these workshops before but I am seriously looking forward to the discussion I have chosen my poem and I've begun to write why I think its a great poem ... there are so many levels that a poem can reach out and touch a reader its making me think but then thats the idea eh :)

hugs JC x

Will be fun to see what poem you chose............stan

author comment

Though I have a very limited time these days,
I much like to join your work shop. Please consider me in if you sill have space.

Rula Y. H.

It provokes and invests at the best that you have
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

Will be good to have you on board...................stan

author comment

Would love to join this one - please! Sounds more my 'thing' than the other workshops at present. I want to think and analyse!

Jenifer

I'll enroll you now. Hope we all have fun and learn a few things too..........stan

author comment

Fantastic - a thinking forum' - look forward to it

Jenifer

I busy blogging on my website and helping wordpress to develop a mobile platform for ipad user. that was right up my ally bc my goal is to use a tablet as easily for all activities like we do laptops.

Eternal Renga still open looking for any who want to make Renga 5 happen

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

It's good to have you so I'll put you on the ol' list now................stan

author comment

Thanks
looking forward

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

Never done a workshop before, but all the poets thus far joined up are are all poets that I respect and enjoy reading their work. I think therefore I shall actually learn something useful and will enjoy the cut & thrust of intellectual debate...bring it on Stan!

Ells x

Of course you're most welcome to join. I'll get you on the list now................stan

author comment

Just a reminder that this shop will kick off tomorrow (Saturday) at approx. 8:00 in the evening Eastern Standard Time. Although not in syllabus we'll start of with a 2 day discussion trying to define what great poetry is...........stan

author comment

We're going to begin with a bit of discussion . We need to define what we think constitutes great poetry before we can choose a great poem. Many things go into making a poem great, but I'll only mention one right now. a truly great poem must be memorable. After all, if it's easily forgotten how can it be remembered as being great?

Of course this isn't the only thing which makes a poem great. So let's hear all ya'll's ideas of what makes a poem great.................stan

author comment

But remember what is memorable for you might not be for others. Isn't that most often true?

Rula Y. H.

It provokes and invests at the best that you have
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

You are correct. So it is entirely also possible that a poem considered great by one person might not seem so to another. Now that begs the question of whether a poem can be considered great without it being remembered by a majority of those wh read it..............stan

author comment

Great poetry as opposed to good poetry which is well constructed uses poetic devices, has a 'voice'...is something that touches your soul; is a larger idea amplified than your own thoughts. It's where you say to yourself, 'Yes! That's how I feel, see, think...but in a way that reveals a higher understanding". I'm afraid this question has been asked many times before and there are many subjective viewpoints. In the end, I feel great poetry has to be about emotion not technique.

Ells :)

Yes but all the emotive qualities in the world won't do much good when stated without decent devices. I.E.: "Fight as hard as you can to not die" as opposed to "rage, rage against the dying of the light". But emotion Is one of the properties of great poetry I think...........stan

author comment

'decent devices' are words, Stan, and every word is a decent device to create emotion.
the way they're collated is the technique.
and a 'great poem' is a fine balance atween both emotion and technique that pulls you to a deeper understanding and throws you to a higher level.
as for Dylan, i rather prefer 'throw a wobbler when your wick starts to wane'

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

Do you think that only emotion and technique is enough to create great poetry? I used Dylan as an example which came quickly to mind.
There are many poem and poets who write emotively and have near flawless technique. And are just middling in their efforts. So there Must be something else. Let's hear what others have to say and then see if we can come up with a definition which is at least close...................stan, a middling poet man lol

author comment

but then, isn't that a technique?

Hugh Nose.

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

So you would add concise wording to the list? I think this might hold true for some forms more than others...........stan

author comment

...and RHYTHM, THE MOST IMPORTANT.

eph.

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

...

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

devices are words, well yes, du'uh, poems are words. How does that contribute to our understanding?

Devices, such as rhyme, meter, imagery, structure can be described separately and put together form technique.
'a 'great poem' is a fine balance atween both emotion and technique that pulls you to a deeper understanding and throws you to a higher level.' Yep, agree.

You really think 'throw a wobbler when your wick starts to wane' is better?
How about re-writing the whole of 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night' and see what others think. Maybe post it for the second part of this workshop.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

i heard yer first time.
that's because i am simple, as you delight in telling me as oft
and i forgot to mention the most important: rhythm!
-well, it were gettin' late here at the time.

as to re-writing Dyl .......it's a globule of urine.

and let's no forget, all great poetry is simplistic.
that's why i write great poetry!

cheers,
eph.

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

I'm hardly expecting and actually not really wanting any one response to be "The" definition for great poetry. Heck anybody who could do that needs to be teaching at the doctorate level and building ne shelves for all the Pulitzer,Nobel and other prized they'd be collecting lol...............stan

author comment

Poetry is a potrait of an event or moment in time. for example:
A lone wolf follow moon by night
look toward horizon by day
to find mate to copulate

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

A poem which does so Can indeed be a great one. But don't you think a poem which might even span an entire lifetime can also be great? I am pleased with all the ideas which are pouring forth. So let's continue along trying to find all which can make a poem great.................PS I have a few more ideas but I'll await and see if ya'll come up with them....................stan

author comment

I can agree, a great poem span a lifetime. I wonder how one get and entire life span in one poem. if its too long it it may not be considered great if its too long in a reader's and one opinion of a great.

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

Do you recall the poem which begins :
under the spreading chestnut tree
the village smithy stands........................just one off the top of my head which embraces more than a momentary snapshot. And does a poem have to be remembered in its entirety to be considered great? Many poems I consider great I can't recite in their entirety. Then there are epics such as Beowulf. Does the fact that most can't recite it in its entirety preclude it being great.?................stan

author comment

I've been called away for about an hour (I hope only an hour lol). But ya'll feel free to keep on posting and postulating.....................stan

author comment

The text and the subtext (the theme) in compination with the use of different figures of speech ,meter and language usage make the great poem

Rula Y. H.

It provokes and invests at the best that you have
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

LOL ....."language usage"..... well that pretty well covers everything. As to meter, I anticipate some participants may well submit a free verse poem for their selection of a great poem in which meter is limited and maybe even totally lacking. Text and subtext......I doubt many would argue that a poem with subtext isn't better than one without. I myself think subtext is an important part of most great poetry.............stan

author comment

So I'm outta here till morning. But this discussion does not have to all be directed at me so ya'll feel free to continue exchanging ideas and I'll add my two cents in about 9-10 hours.............stan PS Time to begin the process of each person choosing a great poem from a well known poet to submit. Don't post it yet, just start deciding.................stan

author comment

We can mostly describe how we recognise great poetry, by how it affects us. Memorable is one. Often when reading great poems I feel like I am remembering, being reminded of something I already know. It produces a frisson and it resonates.

The hard bit is in recognising the elements of the poem itself that produce these reactions. Both separately and in gestalt. This is where we should be concentrating our efforts.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

It's these details which make up the whole which actually Are great poetry. But like single letters it's the use of them that matters ain't it? And of course finding a set formula where A+B/c-(dxe)=great poetry is going to be near as impossible as finding relativity's unified field theory. But even the effort of discussing this should help us all along the path to being better writers.............stan

author comment

Remembering what Coleridge said about great poetry "good words in good order"...the lexis has to produce the 'frisson' it's the dynamic that lifts a well constructed poem to memorability. For example, think about Hamlet's soliloquy by Shakespeare, in his original language. Undoubtedly, one of the most powerful pieces written about suicide...then read it 'translated'...the power, the majesty of feeling disappears.

Ells :)

So now the question arises : Should the message and beauty of great poetry translate to another language? I think that might well be the subject for another shop but it's a very good thing to think about...............stan

author comment

Is something felt that turns mere words into feelings, something akin to being in love that tingle, the embracing by words a quiet voice that says you are safe or I love you , then the other side that makes your hair stand on end or bad memories.
Sometimes all of these will make the tears fall, this is poetry,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

the effect great poetry has on us.

What we really want to do here is describe what it is in the poetry itself, that causes it to have these effects on us.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

There is no way you can tie any poem down to the effect it has on someone, as generally we are near the same with similar thought processes and feelings, then life happens that modifies our feelings all the time every day.
A poem I thought was great when a young man may make me laugh at its stupidity now.
For any poem to retain its greatness then it must portray a theme to many people at the same level.
As in all life if I could make something that would be of use to one million people near to me then I would be rich..
It is the same in poetry if I can affect enough people with the same words then it and I would be deemed great.
How many people living love Shakespeare and why, is it because of its continued effect on the many, or is it that it is taught in many Schools throughout the world as an example of great works and held up as an example on writing.
I feel that there is NO way to determine great poetry these days, flash fires, flash floods, flash poetry, and poetry loses.
End product if you are great these days then one hundred people say so but don't expect that to last, yours and mine will not be taught in school.
One day in the future the idea about the old masters will change but we are to old fashioned, the Bard hasn't been dead long enough,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

poem great. And you are doing it!
'For any poem to retain its greatness then it must portray a theme to many people at the same level.'
Excellent observation. You see? There is no need to be so negative about the goals of this workshop.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

Thanks for your comment, I know I appear a bit negative on a few things maybe from someone at sometime trying to make me write as they did, this was a course on Journalism I took back in the 60's..
Now I suppose it can be a little of my age and a sadness that I should have learned poetry a long time ago but circumstances didn't permit.
I am sure you will pull me back into line if I get bad, lol
I have answered Stan's comment with the start of a list of things we as poets use or do, we will see how the workshop progresses, it is a little unusual and will help quite a few.
Take care out there, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

This is a very good description of the effect great poetry can have on a person. And the effect of a thing goes a way in the thing's definition but let's also concentrate on what is involed in creating the thing.............stan

author comment

As in most things I auto write so may appear distorted or fractured in some of my comments.
Poetry can be written in many ways I will need help with this list :-
1. Positive thinking of a theme and the correct layout..
2. Time and opportunity
3. A reason for writing
4. Writers abilities to write (These to me would seem to label poets)

I ask for help on this as I usually do Auto writing, which is not a Poet controlled time, I allow theme's to flow in and write then edit.
I hear of poets trying to induce writing by various means this to me sounds like an induced trance, and some of them by sleep deprivation sound rather dangerous..
Then some say they can't find their Muse I find that amusing to be blunt.

We should shout for all to give a short Idea on how they create it is very puzzling to me,
Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

At Last! You've given me an excuse for all my typos . I'll just say I was trying sleep deprivation lmao. No need explain your methods as there are as many as there are leaves on a tree lol.........stan

author comment

It is indescribable, it has taxed scholars of linguistics since they could analyse text! We are trying to 'square the circle'...the intellectual debate is interesting but it cannot be definitive as we are human with a unique DNA and possessing unique thought processes. I still think Coleridge summarised it best (and simply, don't forget the elegance of simplicity. To be complex is not always better.)

It may in the end be largely subjective but the exercise of attempting to recognise the elements that make poems great to us is always worthwhile. It adds to our knowledge of poetry as a whole and to our own skill sets.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

I'm perfectly aware of all of that...and I am adding my two penny worth...which, I believe is actually the objective of this workshop beginning. We are discussing what we THINK makes great poetry. I've given 3 opinions so far, trying to build up my rationale. It is a discussion, please allow me to say what I think. I respect you in most regards and I was actually trying to add to your own ideas.'Then what are we discussing?' Is an aggressive question. I just makes me defensive.

It just seemed to me that the comment I was addressing tended to negate our purpose here.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

In something as ephemeral as defining great poetry both the feelings which great poetry evokes and the technical aspects which are used are nearly inseperable. And the fact that we have participants who are approaching the definition from so many different directions is a Good thing. We need to keep in mind that we all think differently (thank God) and that all manner of ideas and thought is welcome here................stan

author comment

is 'what makes a great poem' due to a wide audience appeal?
on the one hand yes, it stands to reason.
but no, i'm not persuaded by general opinion.
or mayhaps it's not they're great
but imprinted in the brain by force
....much like Cliff Richard's mumbling.
...and the heat goes on where the hand has been....

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

Althought it's true that great poetry can be written without having a wide appeal this lack almost guantees it won't be remembered over time. And won't that then preclude it being great? Or can greatness be a variable thing? A poem which is great but only when read during the time it is written?......................stan

author comment

yet i may be the only one,
but does that lesson their greatness?
if so, then it's just a matter of numbers,
which, in my opinion, isn't a good enough definition.
so where do we go with this?

yours nonplussed,
eph.

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

Don't tiptoe from the lightbulb of your brain,
Decrepitness should snap before the moon;
Throw a wobbler when the wick begins to wane.

When sage decays, though need i to explain,
It's dumb and numb to utter and oppugn.
Don't tiptoe from the lightbulb of your brain

But slash (the nurse will change your counterpane)
And flail a boot and howl as a mad baboon;
Throw a wobbler when the wick begins to wane

For feral thoughts that sing the moon insane
And hopscotch through the tulips like a loon
Don't tiptoe from the lighbulb of your brain.

Save then, near death, these wisely words and gain
An icyblink of madness from a spoon,
Throw a wobbler when the wick begins to wane.

And you, dear Jess, there tugging at your mane
May curse, but inwardly you'll doubtless swoon.
Don't tiptoe from the lightbulb of your brain.
Throw a wobbler when the wick begins to wane.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(it were a globule of urine. like pushing a dog-end
down a latrine, it gushed automatically over the page
who's just handed in his notice. yours, king eph.)

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

We'll be posting poetry in a few days lol. Please keep in mind that the fact that so many different opinions on what constitutes great poetry is going to be a good thing in this shop lol.............stan

author comment

...as a wise and great poet once said,
'the only thing we have in common is our differences.
long may it continue'

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

What a lively and varied discussion we're having! Thought this might be a good time to summerize what we've come up with so far. Good poetry must :
Be memorable
Have underlying subtext
Be emotive
Be well structured
Have good technique
Be succinct
Have rhythm
Be capable of freezing time for the reader
Must resonate within the reader
Should have wide appeal at least during the time it is written

Well this doesn't seem any more to ask of a poem than asking it to bring about world peace lol.
I guess now we should take these things one at a time and discuss how we writers can achieve them. So we'll start at the top of the list. What can we put into a poem to make it memorable?...............

author comment

To be memorable, makes a short statement spring to mind,
"A small step for man, A giant leap for mankind"
If we could write a poem, to match the effect this had on the world, then bring it on, if you know the plan.
So it seems we need a few things..
A situation that is unrepeatable or a giant first,
Then the words to portray it simply and direct so that everyone that sees and hears that moment will recall it and then we know it will be there for ever.
I shall see if I can find some ???????? Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Very, very few poems, even great ones, are remembered in their entirety. But I expect we can all agree that All great poetry leads one to recall at least a line or two from them..............stan

author comment

I have to agree great poetry makes me remember a line or two and in some cases the whole poem

Jayne-Chloe

Sorry for the late arrival I've been in hospital since Friday ...

I will weight in to the discussion shortly

Jc

No need apologize. We're still in the discussin' and cussin' stage lol. I hope all went well at the hospital..........stan

author comment

I had a couple of rough days and couldn't concentrate enough to manage a decent thought.
Although I haven't contributed much to the conversation, I do feel that Stan's list is rather complete. What we have done, is come to a consensus. That is what dertermines the poetry that is great. A consensus of impact upon the most people at the time. ~ Gee

Bring your work to the fore, with the addition of a premium-membership!
Just see what you can do! Add a bit of flavor to your profile and kick it up a notch!

Nobody is taking roll call or handing out demereits for those who run late lol. The list is likely incomplete and will likely be added to during this preliminary discussion. For instance, I think the wording of a poem needs to be plain enought that "everyman" is not sent scurrying to the dictionary in order to understand it. After all, isn't it the simplest ideas which have the greatest impact and are best remembered?

But regardless feel free to add your ideas as you are able..............stan

author comment

Sorry I am late, madness prevails (not an apology, just an explanation). What is great poetry vs good poetry vs OK or poor poetry? My belief is that it is difficult to take subjectivity entirely out of the conversation. I've been engaged in research for several years and it became obvious that analytical criticism still has an agenda and unconscious or otherwise subjectivity leaked by the researcher into the writing. Is poetry 'just' a science, to be boiled down to equations - you do this, this and this and the poem is great? It's a bit like when they tried to analyse beauty (the perfect nose, mouth, eyes, eyebrows etc, put them all together and the final model was, yes, beautiful but curiously cold and even repugnant (perfection is not always the best outcome). I agree with scribbler that good poetry has certain forms and ways of being, maybe great poetry has to have some (excuse me all you analytical types) unbottled spirit, charm or resonance. Something, and I am not religious, from the 'soul' of the writer, whatever that maybe. This doesn't negate making and refining the tools of the trade - understanding how poems work and the formation of great poetry: a bit like great wine, there is discipline but still a magic element.

Jenifer

IMNSHO

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

awesome comment Jenifer I agree wholeheartedly with Jess

Jayne-Chloe

Yes it's probably the content which makes poetry great. But the technical aspects are what make it memorable as poetry. All who ever saw Gone With The Wind remember the closing line "frankly my dear, I don't give a damn". This is a memorable line but hardly poetic. In my unlearned opinion poetry goes beyond prose by bringing a type of beauty to expressing universal themes. Often it is the beauty of the language used which causes one to recall the poem......................stan Ps I'm learning a good bit in this discussion

author comment

Dear Stan, I agree wholeheartedly...with uncertainties. Knowing, or being able to understand (some people just seem to 'know' how to write poetry, natural ability , inherent - like some people have an ear to music or how to paint) the technical aspects of poetry once mastered, aid in the creation (the so called rules)of poetry. But it is still not always just technicality which does it. I was reading a Sylvia Plath poem last night and trying to work out why it was so beautiful, without my understanding a word -it was very late- and only the 'feel' of it was memorable today. But the feel of that poem haunts me and will through my work day until I can read it again, even if I can't remember a word. Other people write raw poetry which is just a great untutored whack from the heart. Polish that poetry and it might raise it to another level, or destroy it. So what makes great poetry, for me, is still a curious thing. I am learning so much in this debate!

Jenifer

I used to (and still do pretty much) stumble around writing poetry , mostly rhyming, an every once in a while surprise myself and astonish others when I'd put out a pretty good write. Never had the slightest idea why it worked when so many others didn't. But through exposure to good poetry over time and a few workshops. at least now I am beginning to see that great poetry need not be a random thing.

As to Plath. If I'm not mistaken she writes almost entirely in free verse doesn't she? And the poem you read high lights what I think the major failing of free verse is. One reads it and is left with a feeling that might last for weeks or even years. But most of the time in order to regain that feeling one must look the poem up and reread it because its form does not lend itself to easy memorization. Much better to be able to recall at least the favorite parts of a poem .

Now the main failure in rhyming poetry is likely the way it is so easy to write rhyme yet so difficult to do so in a manner which doesn't seem forced. In the best rhyming poetry the reader should read it then realize almost as an afterthought that Hey. this rhymed . And by rhyming and having decent meter it will be more easily recalled at will.

Now rhyming poetry can also have the effect you underwent with the Plath poem. In fact the poem I've chosen to post for the Neopoet part of this shop? I recalled only the feeling it gave and a few key words and I had to ask author's help in looking it up. It was on the old site and I had remembered and been impressed with it deeply enough to recall after all that time..............stan

author comment

Not quite ready to let this one go! I so love debate, no one is necessarily right or wrong, but isn't fun on the way!

Couple of points: Is great poetry always memorable, easy to memorise? I don't entirely agree. Easy to remember poetry may be great - or even banal. Jingles on the TV are easy to get in your head and stay there for Christmas party time, or after a gin or two. So, easy to remember poetry can be what it is - fun or extraordinary (nursery rhymes, Edward Lear - he is up there, wonderful man, Shakespeare etc). This is not to say that rhythm, rhyme, metre, use of stanza, placing of words etc etc (and you are talking here to someone who has no formal training in poetry at all, just reading and playing with words, so a knock-along novice) are not the tools of growth in the ability to create something amazing - that's obvious when you watch the poetry kings and queens. I suppose what I think is that hard and fast rules might not entirely cut it.

Poetry, free form or through formal can both work . As Serendipity says on this thread, sometimes it is how it affects the reader is where greatness comes. When I look at 'best loved anthologies', it seems to me that some of the poems nearly always included are those that haunt, resonate, poems we were exposed to as children, those that touch the human experience and some which are just plain sentimental - but are memorable. Some become memorable through repetition - not always good poetry, though.

So what is great poetry: don't yet know, can't quite define. The Sylvia Plath poem haunts me, Dylan Thomas, I remember and can quote, I read translations of poetry by Tomas Transtromer (2011 Nobel prize winner) and even in translation, I am in awe. Fantastic, huh!

Jenifer

Every time I tell someone that I think great poetry is memorable they bring up nursery rhymes lol. The only formal poetry training I've ever had was about 4 weeks back in a high school literature class. ( so long ago that the author of Beowulf dropped by for a lesson lol) so I am also a mere plodder. But there Is a difference between memorable and easily memorized isn't there? One can very well remember a poem simply because you like it so much you read it a lot over time. Just as a person can memorize exception prose which touches deeply.

And of course it is the emotion or content which is conveyed which leads one to even Want to remember a poem isn't it? As to us ever defining the set formula for great poetry......would we ever really Want to? But thinking about it and reading it should make us all better at it..................stan

author comment

lots of things make up great poetry, a poem must move the reader make them feel something be it in the belly or in the heart it must convey the poets message ... good poetry moves me to tears or anger or makes me rage against injustice

form, metre, rhyme and scansion are only techniques the poet uses to get across his message or feeling and it should give meaning to a thing an event or person

i read somewhere that poetry can be a mental relief but it doesnt have to be I have to say in my case that is the truth, we all have defects as poets but being here having discussions like this one can only better us all

now I will read the above I didnt want to loose track of my thoughts before I put key to board

Jayne-Chloe

A lot of the commentary thus far seems to be centering on the things which make for a memorable poem and rhyme and meter are some of the earliest techniques used to make poetry (which was originally developed as a memory tool for passing along oral histories) easier to memorize.....................stan

author comment

fully understand but again there are so many things that go into making a great poem great, rhyme and metre are techniques to help the poet a great poem is a combination of all the things that have been discussed I have been reading a lot of the last week or so and there is concensius that there is no right answer to this question

I have read some appalling poetry that others have liked who is right them or me ? lol

the poem has to reach the reader on a base level and for me in come cases touch something in me that I didnt know I possessed

Jayne-Chloe

As I just said to Jen, a great poem must have content Worthy of being recalled before anybody will Want to remember it whatever form it's written in.

And of course we'll not be able to come up with the exact formula here. But as in hunting it's the quest which will teach us, not the kill lol..............stan

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Exactly right, dear Stan - if we get to the kill, it'll all be over!

Jenifer

As I said down the page its all about learning I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion !!
I have gotten much fodder for thought

Jayne-Chloe

I think the smoothness in the flow makes poetry good reading, If i can read straight through without stopping like a song I think its great.
I'm uneducaed in poetry so my opinions may not be as indept as others who hae more knowledge of poetry itself. this workshop will educate me more.

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

it's the base of all poetry......music in words!

warmly, eph.

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

I agree rhythm is what i look for first. Then the theme and subject will come next. the more I read the better i will remember something from it for all times.

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

One needs no formal training to know what they like. And I agree that a poem which lacks awkward stops is more pleasing than on which has stops at strange places. Indeed it's my personal opinion tha a well written poem doesn't need punctuation because the writer supplies the pauses and stops by his/her word usage. (Don't tell Wesley that, he'll have a stroke lol).

The main reason I run any shops is to learn as well as watch ya'll teach each other because my formal poetic training is practically nil........................stan

author comment

I agree I try to write that way as often as possible

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

To keep us all on the same page we're now discussing how a poem can be made memorable......stan

author comment

You'll find me all over the place. lol
thanks for drawing me back in. To a make a poem memorable I think is something that different that stands out from the rest

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

using poetic devices to get across the message be it the form or structure, or the rhythm and the flow, it can be a set of words placed so perfectly you read the poem again and again just to wonder at its message and beauty thats my uneducated view

Jayne-Chloe

Shock tactics such as the use of Oxymoron is a wonderful poetic device...i'm thinking of the opening line of Carol Ann Duffy's 'Havisham'...written in the persona of Charles Dickens great literary character Miss Havisham...opening line....'Darling sweetheart bastard'. Perfectly describes a jilted fiancees sensibility!

Memorability does not have to be just rhyme. As usual, there seems to be a developing antagonism between the 'traditionalists' & the 'freeformers'...I don't think one form is superior to the other, I greatly respect contemporary poets who use their considerable skill to write technically difficult poetry, but for me personally, I'm rarely moved by strict metre. For me, it will always be figurative skills and lexis.

I like to think that I have one foot in each camp I write rhymers and freeform I just finished a rhyming poem but I totally agree a poem for me for it to be memorable it doesnt have to be either it has to move me I know I keep saying that but it does it has to gently place its message in my lap or slap me on the head and say wake up

Jayne-Chloe

...but there doesn't have to be antagonism but respect between us all as lovers of writing and words. I also find very formal, but beautifully crafted poetry doesn't always warm me: I might admire it, certainly respect it , but stumble on it's purity or rigidity or whatever- but others will fully embrace those qualities. I love all sorts of poetry and use of words, so I find many poems memorable. Resonance, pulling together that memory, emotional space, that gasp of awe or shock of recognition: words in the right place in that particular poem. Very subjective. The tools to make a memorable poem are always going to be different with different writers.

Jenifer

Loving words and books as much as I do all I want to do is learn and I have learnt much already and thats the whole idea :)) !!

Jayne-Chloe

Hopefully i have not antagonized anybody over form discussion. Many here are probably not aware that I have written in and enjoyed writing in almost every form. (though truth be told those damned sonnets drive me batty lol).So I see the advantages of both traditional and modern poetry. But for whatever reason I prefer writing traditional. Now it's my humble opinion that a generation from now the poetry which will be recalled from our era is likely to be poetry which has combined the best of both free form and rhyme. Of course we'll never live to see if I'm right lol.

There have been plenty of shops here covering technicalities. Even a few which have covered how content affects poetry. I am hopeful this shop can give us all pause to think about how all aspects of poetry can occasionally come together to create something extraordinary. And no, I don't expect this shop will suddenly have us all producing master pieces each time our pens contact paper. Nobody does that . After all who ever heard of Frost's poem "Slogging through the swamp" lmao.............stan

PS after we've beaten the memorable thing to death. the next topic will be whether rhythm is necessary for greatness and whether free form should allow rhyme

author comment

Great forum, Stan - it's all about respect for others, while holding your own beliefs. Bravo to everyone. One small curse, you mean we might not be producing masterpieces after working here, slaving over a hot verse? Well strike me down with a hot iron, I'm off to sleep. See you all tomorrow, good poets of the world.

Jenifer

Our egos shouldn't get in our way when discussing what makes a poem great I do think that form is very important without it some amazing poetry would never have been put to paper

I don't know what sort of poet I am I like writing both the musician in me loves rhyming poetry but there is another part of me that loves writing freeform one is not better than the other but each have their own differing advantages

Jayne-Chloe

Had I seen this earlier, I would have asked to join, but for now I'll just drop my opinions here.

To me, what makes a poem memorable entirely depends on how it touches the reader. It doesn't have to be easy to remember, though that helps greatly.

Also, I get the feeling that our calling a poem great is affected by what has been introduced to us as great poetry, or what we've been exposed to. Poetry that won't be considered great, going by what was pointed out earlier in the discussion, will be held highly by some.

It's little wonder that poetry which nearly moves me to tears doesn't tickle most of my friends.

I'm also of the opinion that there may be no universally accepted definition of bad poetry.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

To begin with we're still in the early part of this shop so if you want to join in as a participant just let me know.
Now to the subjectivity of what is or isn't great poetry. You are correct that on person's masterpiece favorite poem might well be considered sub-par by another. We will be addressing this in the "meat " part of this shop when we each post and discuss poems we consider great.

As to a great poem doesn't have to be easy to remember in order to be memorable....but it sure doesn't hurt lol..........stan

author comment

(what am I saying? We're poets, we could find something to divide us if we were canned together)
I agree with Mr. Crud that it is the single most important aspect of structure in poetry in terms of readability and memorability.

I am not referring just to strict metric forms but also to irregular meter, general flow. and tricky meter. Tricky meter? Well, where a poet sets up a rhythm then jars it to draw attention to certain words or phrases. Have you read Gerard Manley Hopkins? His idiosyncratic 'sprung' meter makes me swoon every time, even when the content is so-so.

Good flow goes a long way to enhancing the sense of 'rightness' about a work.

Strict meters create their own different emotional ambience. The da DUM of iambic is the sound of the human heart, most common in natural speech and conducive to end rhymes. Trochaic makes for great enjambment, storytelling and a marching beat. Anapaestic makes a galloping sound great for ballads, generally lyrical. Dactylic is similar to Trochaic, more lyrical.

So before anyone gets prickly, let me be clear. I am not advocating any particular form of flow/rhythm/meter. I am merely suggesting that an understanding of how it affects us could help us determine how a poem works for us.

It is often overlooked because it is not 'in your face' like rhyme.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

More fodder for thought how it affects us will help us understand what makes a poem work
Thanks Jess I was trying to find the right way to put it

Jc

Yep, maintaing rhyme is much easier than maintaining meter. If anybody doesn't believe that, it's obvious they don't read much of my stuff lol. I guess if forced to choose between which is most important (meter or rhyme) in making poetry memorable I'd choose (gasp!) meter. For a beat is more of a gut thing than rhyming is. Another thing that can help in making a free verse memorable is to have an emphatic rhyme thrown in to "wake" a reader up and alert the reader "here is something important". This can also be accomplished in a rhyming poem by breaking rhyme pattern but the effect isn't quite as startling................stan

author comment

Good point. It is how we as readers 'hear' poetry which also helps make the poem great, memorable or mediocre to us.

Jenifer

Can a poem be considered great independent of context/time it was written /read? Does the manner in which a reader encounters a poem affect it's greatness? I don't know if. I'm sending the discussion back, but these thoughts just came to my mind.

No verse is free for the man who wants to do a good job. - TS Eliot

I think that it wouldn't matter the manner a poem is discovered a great poem will grab you everytime
Some of my favourite poems are hundreds of years old others are modern pieces

Jayne-Chloe

I think that many poems which were great in their time and context may well fade as times change. So maybe there are Types of great poetry. Short lived and timeless. And isn't timeless what we'd all shoot for if given the choice?.............stan

author comment

is gleaned from our personal lives:
our upbringing, personal tragedies, loves,
hopes, fears, a moment in time, etc....
...there's no rhyme or reason!

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

I'm not too sure about that. If one were to follow that logic then only soldiers who'd been in combat could write great war poems and only those who had lost a wife could write a poem about a dead wife. To be sure, a writer who has personally experienced something might well have an Easier time writing about it but I expect many great poems were written on subjects the writer had not themselves endured. I would hope Poe had not been through all the events he wrote about................stan

author comment

not writing!

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

My mistake. Might want to mark your calendar for stan the perfect so seldom makes mistakes ........riiiiiiiiight lmao...............stan

author comment

This is about empathy, or very good visualisation, I think, so not always true. We may not experience, for instance, the reality of battlefield, but maybe could write a decent poem based on media, talking to people, reading etc. Would that poem, written away from the real experience, be 'great' to soldiers who have smelled war, done it, felt it and been there? Grief is a bit different because we all experience forms of grief throughout our lives- so empathetic poetry may be easier to realise. I agree that poets like Poe and other poets have an extraordinary imagination, but from memory he was an eccentric, extraordinary man teetering on the edge of madness (as many of us do - define madness-), so could access another wild dimension to place in his writing.
So real experience in certain instances will make better poetry, depending on the poet and their mind. Personally, I think most poets are mad, inclusive of me.

Jenifer

please do pardon me butting in...apologies to stan and all, but
i had to stick my nose in at this point to say, YES! mr crud, you
have hit the nail on the head as far as i'm concerned
i know EXACTLY what you're saying

(pleiades backs out of the room, bowing and scraping for having intruded)

I understand rhyme more so than meter. but I think meter is more memorable. Rhyme or meter don't come easy to me, but if i want to write in either I can it just takes more concentration. Freeform and prose come naturally. I been writing some freeform on my blog page I think is memorable. I will share one .

the crescent moon shine
bright in the southern skies
of my neighborhood

hung low over treetops
outside my sliding glass door
behind my house I take this picture

going blind from Glaucoma
I took a drive to the pharmacist
to pick up my Lumigan drops

watching the crescent moon
a few meters to the right
from where I first saw her smile

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

We would have to discuss the possibility of universal empiricism of any truth. Not that many good, helpful conversations couldn't arise from a topic this broad. For instance, would one single person's opinion that a poem isn't great render that poem 'not great'. I realize that this kind of discourse is little more than a massive game of intellectual ping pong, although finding any majority truths could add to an appearance of a somewhat universal understanding. Suffice it to say it's an interesting question.

Ron

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

We will later on be examining poetry which participants consider great. It is my opinion that true greatness in poetry can only be bestowed over time. Hence so many poets who are not recognized until they're gone. It takes time and thousands of reads before a true consesus can be reached about greatness in almost any field.

And yes, this shop has more to do with the philosophy of poetry and hence will reach no set and exacting conclusion .There will probably be no agreement as to what constitutes greatness in a poem. But again I'll reference hunting. There have been times when I harvested a deer with almost no effort. These hunts taught me almost nothing about hunting. It's the ones which teased and challenged me over time which taught me the most. What am I doing wrong? Where does this deer eat and bed and how does this change with the weather?And it's what the hard ones teach us that really matters and I often learn the most from deer that I Never even see. That is how I hope this shop works. I hope it gets people to examine a large range of great poetry and maybe, just maybe, each of us will discover something about our own writing which we had been blind to previously.............stan

author comment

A subject we haven't delved into too deeply yet is subtext. Do great poems require subtext and should the subtext be obvious or subtle?

author comment

till you dig too deep

* * * * * * *
life is like war....it's war!

ephraim crud, COS.

I agree that subtext should not be the only message or idea conveyed.............stan

author comment

Reading between the lines is a skill...needs to be developed over time...but sometimes the reader needs at least a clue as to where the poet is heading. Subtext has to be subtle...otherwise it isn't 'sub'!

Ells :)

Subtext is probably the single most difficult thing to me in writing poetry. Too often I'm TOO subtle and nobody catches the intended subtext at all. What seems to work best for me so far is to point out the subtext by title usage (which doesn't always work "Bridges" being a good example) or by waiting until the poem's end to leave a heavy hint of the secondary level which if one isn't careful can be about as subtle as a sledge hammer lol............stan

author comment

It would appear everybody is getting tired of beating this horse in a theoretical manner lol. So let's begin the next part of this shop. We will now each post a peom he/she considers great that was written by a well known poet. No epic or extremely long poems allowed( longer poems would take too much time to fully analyse). In order to give each poem its due we will only post 2 at a time. I guess as random a way to choose who posts when is to start at the bottom of participants list and work our way to the top. So Betty and Barb, your poems are up...................stan PS please post your chosen poems on stream with a notation next to title stating it's for great poetry shop. This will give non-shop folks a chance to comment

author comment

I Am

I am: yet what I am none cares or knows,
My friends forsake me like a memory lost;
I am the self-consumer of my woes,
They rise and vanish in oblivious host,
Like shades in love and death's oblivion lost;
And yet I am! and live with shadows tost

Into the nothingness of scorn and noise,
Into the living sea of waking dreams,
Where there is neither sense of life nor joys,
But the vast shipwreck of my life's esteems;
And e'en the dearest--that I loved the best--
Are strange--nay, rather stranger than the rest.

I long for scenes where man has never trod;
A place where woman never smil'd or wept;
There to abide with my creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept:
Untroubling and untroubled where I lie;
The grass below--above the vaulted sky.
John Clare

I will withhold my opinions on this poem for now so as to not influence others. Please get it on stream ASAP because that's where the commentary on these poems will take place. Also look below at Jess's instruction which I forgot lol................stan

author comment

I consider him to be up there with Byron and the early Romantic poets. He was self-taught, came from humble beginnings and wrote so eloquently about nature, it's desecration at the start of the Industrial Revolution and the exploration of the self. He suffered from depression and sadly spent his latter years in an Asylum. A truly tortured soul. His poetry contains nearly all of the elements this group has discussed in detail constituting 'greatness'. QED

Ellie :)

In the dropdown list. Very important so we can find all submitted poems from the link on this page,
ta,

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

Thank you, I had forgotten to include in my instructions. Must be due to my having CRS lol..............stan

author comment

This looks like something interesting stan,
I will join if I'm not too late?

Ann/Nordic Cloud.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

You will be most welcome to join. I'll get you on the list now. Please be sure to go over syllabus and read most of the preceeding discussion...........stan

author comment

My eyes must have crossed in reading participants list. The ones who should now be posting are Betty and Barb not Betty and Jen....................stan

author comment

First my own definition at the moment:
What makes a poem Great

It appeals to the society of its day.
It appeals further to those coming after its day.
Its repetition gives it a standing.
Its becomes a role model.
It becomes what we call great. 

In a few words, or in many words,
these great poems go on into further centuries
inspiring and impressing by their depth of understanding, 
the understanding of our basic joy in rhythm 
in movement dance, in inspired thoughts and emotions
as in all arts, they are a staff of life,
apart from the basics like food bodily health.

Food for the mind, for the expansion of our sense of being alive,
our humour; and like the natural(?) development of brilliant colours
on the wings of birds and flowers, beautiful, dangerously exciting,
designed to attract,
these embellishments are the colours a society produces
on the surface of the mundane simplicity of the ordinary. 

The emotions that remain after the poem,
not the intellect explaining the meanings.
one knows with one's all that this is good,
we cannot always express why, but just know it.

For now, Ann.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

Brilliant Ann that's one of the best answers

This workshop is awesome !!

Love Jc xxx

Thank you Jayne Chloe, I just sat and thought,
that's what I mean by it, thinking not of details
but the whole sense of greatness,
as it is in our society; thank you.

Love Ann of Norway.

Yes discussing how and what we look at
and think about it, is always interesting.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

A very well thought out answer. And although it will probably be futile we're still going to try to analyze the "nut and bolts" of what makes a poem great ..............stan

author comment

What about this Norwegian one:-

KVELD
 
Ein mann går over isen.
... På ryggen heng nokre daude fiskar.
 
Sola står lågt over havet
og gjer skuggen hans lang og blå.
 
Framanfrå
ser det ut som han ber sola
 
ein raud klode, over skuldra.
 
Bakfrå,
som i ein giftering av gull,
 
ser ein det lysa i auge til ein sik.
 
                   Lars Lundkvist. Takk til Helge Torvund

EVENING

A man went over the ice. (a frozen lake)
...On his back hung some dead fish.

The sun was low over the sea
and made his shadow long and blue.

From the front
it looked as if he were carrying the sun,

a red globe, over his shoulder.

From behind
like a gold wedding ring,

one could see the glint in the eys of a grayling.

(Grayling is a fresh water fish in the salmon family,
big eyes, silver in colour, good to eat!)
******
I commented:-
Superb poetry, everything just right, with the Zen-like kick at the end.

It had that sudden moment of surprise for me,
and that makes things memorable.
I should hie me away to the eastern poets,
for what I feel perhaps is greatness, but then,
not so much perhaps in the west!
And the mora-or onamatopoeic in the
Japanese poetry, the weight of each syllable,
is not able to be appreciated by us, in the original
language, and that's a drawback, isn' t it?

As aye Ann.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

Let's hear a bit more commentary on Barbara's and Betty's choices for great poetry which are posted on stream...................stan

author comment

is a box titled-

Most recent poems

at the bottom of that box is the link-

>> View all poems submitted to this workshop

in any workshop you should check that link regularly as you won't get notifications of new poems posted to the workshop.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

And this shop in particular will die without most everybody giving commentary. Plus I'm not going to wait over 3 days between having next 2 poems posted................stan

author comment

I just read Barbara's submission and it got me to thinking. Perhaps a good way to predict whether a contemporary poem will be considered great over the passage of time is it's being used in contemporary media or referred to in contemporary literature. Ya'll's thoughts?..............stan

author comment

He was born in 1941 and is a year older than me, he still lives, so he can't be great lol, You just wait till Yenti, Sparrow, and Ian.T leave then you may hear of greatness La La.
Anyway he lives in New York in the new country give him a chance???
Yours, Sparrow..

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Yes , I believe media helps in letting more people know and read the literary work but great pieces should live and spread even without the media and we have many good examples to prove this .

Rula Y. H.

It provokes and invests at the best that you have
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

Jenifer and Rula, it will be time Monday afternoon for ya'll to post you choice of poems. Don't forget to hit shop button and include (great poetry shop) in title..............stan

author comment

Black lake, black boat, two black, cut-paper people.
Where do the black trees go that drink here?
Their shadows must cover Canada.

A little light is filtering from the water flowers.
Their leaves do not wish us to hurry:
They are round and flat and full of dark advice.

Cold worlds shake from the oar.
The spirit of blackness is in us, it is in the fishes.
A snag is lifting a valedictory pale hand;

Stars open among the lilies.
Are you not blinded by such expressionless sirens?
This is the silence of astounded souls.

Jenifer

You should also post it in stream clicking the workshop tab and choosing the appropriate workshop ... she is one of my favourites I cant wait to give a crit of this poem its one I have known forever look forward to reading it in stream :))

Jayne-Chloe xxx

Hints of other things in this poem,
while appearing understandable,
somewhat dark, in spirit, and yet the
dancing of the water, and the flowers
giving light, as do the stars, like reflections
into the depths of the lake of plenty,
egging us to go on, yet a hinderance,
astonished by the brilliance white light
in the contrasting black. I am not sure
I can read the meaning in this, A poetic
puzzle, clothed in exciting visions.

Therefore i'm not so sure of its greatness,
I leave that to others to decide on this one.

Interesting though, Ann.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

I love this poem. Is it great? - I don't know, possibly no-one else on this forum knows it because it is not her most famous. But I love it - it reverberates memory and music for me, it's so clean, disciplined and spare (but rich too). It is great, for me - what do you think?

I have been away for a few days so I will check in and read more tomorrow of all your choices.

Jenifer

Sylvia Plath...now there's a complicated poet! Tight, elegant use of lexis and extended metaphor...the darkness is illuminated in the final stanza. It is stuffed with poetic devices and assonance. Doesn't need to rhyme. The rhetorical questions drive the reader on.

The final line is great. Thanks for sharing this one.

Ells x

I appreciate all the hard thought being displayed thus far. Hope you're all enjoying the shop so far.
Now is the time for Geezer and Ephraim to submit their selection of great poetry by known poets. It is also time for those who have already posted their poems by known poets to start thinking about their coming choices of potentially great poems by fellow Neopoet members. Who you choose won't matter, heck you can even choose one of your own poems if you want. But remember that these poems will be closely scrutinized by eveybody.................stan

author comment

Much enjoyed Stan, Ann.

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

Everybody who has not yet posted their great poem by a known writer should do so over the weekend............stan

author comment

You are all making this a wonderful shop. I finally posted my known writer poem and that means we're almost half through. The next phase will be posting a poem by a fellow neopeot writer which you consider to have at least thepotential for greatness. We will begin posting these on Monday. We will post 2 poems at a time in alphabetical order. Do Not Post Until I PM you that it's your turn. I've learned a bit about authors' whose works I've never read and I hope we All learn even more from this next phase.....................stan

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Hi Stan,
Please add me to the workshop/conversation.

Thanks,

BlueDemo77

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

You are most welcome to join. However due to your late arrival I must request you forego submitting a poem written by a known poet. You can feel free to comment on those already posted by earlier participants and to add commentary to this stream, but the shop has already gone to the next phase which will be posting poems by fellow neopoet members which have the potential to become great. We ere going to post these alphabetically by pairs but I've already notified the first two so if you would await my notifying you via PM before posting your choice I'd appreciate it. It will likely be about mid week. I am allowing only 2 posta at a time so that all will receive proper consideration. Welcome aboard...............stan

author comment

Bummer though, I was going to break out the Rimbaud......

BlueDemon77

Blue Demon77

"What I want is to be what I was before the knife,
before the brooch pin, before the salve, fixed me in this parenthesis:
Horses fluent in the wind. A place, a time gone out of mind."

The Eye Mote-Sylvia Plath

with your argument for why it's great.
I want Rimbaud! I want Rimbaud! I want Rimbaud! I want Rimbaud! I want Rimbaud! I want Rimbaud!
[holds his breath till he turns blue]

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

I agree, blast the rules, lets have a whack of anarchy - GO go go! RIM baud now.

Jenifer

Rim Baud:- in my dictionary it says when a man's hair that use to stick out from under his hat falls out.
There seems to be some Frenchman that has taken to the name,
Yours Sparrow

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

I'd already told him if shop doesn't drag on too long I'd let him post at end of shop as a reinforcement of what great poetry should be. So patience, patience lol.........stan

author comment

Ok, then :)

Jenifer

I'm not as hard ass as you thought lol

author comment

That's all I can say. Huh.

Jenifer

No excuses by Lonnie (Great Poetry Workshop)
at
http://www.neopoet.com/ephraimcrud/blog/thu-2013-02-07-1413#new

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

We are approaching the end of this shop. Once Ron posts his selection by a fellow neopoet and it has gathered its comment we'll be through. I'll leave this up for a while in case anybody wants to post further obsevations on what constitutes great poetry. I would also appreciate your ideas about how this shop could have been better and all the things I did wrong.

I also want to express my appreciation for everybody who joined in this shop both shop participants and visitors. After all it is Ya'll that determine a shop's success not me or any other shop leader. I'll be taking a break from running a shop for probably a month while I formulate a syllabus for my next one which will be titled "GOOD BEGINNINGS". I hope some of ya'll will help me make a success of it when the time comes......................stan

author comment

This workshop was top line .
It gave many a chance to expand their reading and also some a chance to see who likes their poetry and the reasons why..
All in all a great workshop, thank you both for all your work, now I have to talk to Cata and write up his travels better.
Thanks again, Yours Ian.T

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

Please run this again...we all learned stuff along the way....and read some damned fine poetry!

Ellie xxx

The next three shops that i have in mind running will almost be subsets of this one. i hope you'll join me for them.............stan

author comment

a great time! I think you did a fine job, in running a workshop with such a broad scope. Everything was clearly explained and it was paced well enough, that I think everyone had the chance to give an opinion, reply to other comments and in general, be as much a part of the whole thing as they wanted. Thanks for the invite. I hope I will have the opportunity to particpate in the next workshop. ~ Geezer

Bring your work to the fore, with the addition of a premium-membership!
Just see what you can do! Add a bit of flavor to your profile and kick it up a notch!

thank you. And you never have to await an invitation to join a shop of mine................stan

author comment

Enjoyed greatly, looking forward to you nxt one.

*
Have a Cheerful Day
Barbara
Come Renga with us for a week- join now.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/come-renga-neopoets

Much effort and time have been put in this shop boss! Looking forward for your next soon..Many thanks sir

Rula Y. H.

It provokes and invests at the best that you have
The NeoPoet Mentor Program
http://www.neopoet.com/mentor/about

I too think you did us proud Stan,
attentive to our discussions
and helpful in your comments,
I think we all enjoyed it, thank you.

Love Ann

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

I had kind of wondered how a shop would go over which didn't require any poetry writing. I am extremely proud of how everybody joined together to make this work......................stan

author comment

It was super we look forward to more of yours stan
off to Qigong love Ann

"The image of yourself which you see in a mirror Is dead,
but the reflection of the moon on water, lives." Kenzan.

This shop is now declared officially closed. I hope to see you all in the next one and also hope you all learned as much as I did..........................stan

author comment

I have posted my favourite poem by Greek/Australian poet Komninos.
http://www.neopoet.com/workshop/poems/my-friends-komninos-great-poetry-w...

I didn't post one by a Neopoet because it would have been Esker, and he is represented twice.

I have been running workshops since their inception 2 years ago and this has been one of the best. All kudos to you, Stan and all the participants.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

my first workshop here and it was fantastic. As a newcomer, it was a lovely ride. Anyone for a drink down the pub?

Jenifer

Would love to catch up.

cheers,
Jess

We would love to hear your voice. Record other peoples poems too for feedback.
SoundCloud is good for the purpose and easy to use.
https://soundcloud.com/upload-beta
or Vocaroo, easier to use but not archival
http://vocaroo.com/

Do we get discount being so old, Do we???
Do they give you a memory enhancer, Do they ???
Do they give you transplants I hear they are good now Do they ???
Yours just living in whatever, Ian whoever

.
There are a million reasons to believe in yourself,
So find more reasons to believe in others..

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