What does it mean to be a word-smith? Can one explanation be ( A person capable of fashioning a poem or prose using ordinary words? Or someone who owns an Oxford Dictionary, and they aren’t afraid to use it?)???
I would prefer the former not the later. It is just a matter of personal taste. I would rather see a poem created using words like, sun, moon. heart, endurance, thoughts, feelings, pain, romance, hate, love, as examples.
Than seeing a poem comprised entirely of words such as, Supercilious, Sanctamonius, Cathartic, Luminary, there are so many amazing words to choose from. Yet I would caution using those words sparingly. If you can’t paint your picture with ordinary words, using ones that most will have a hard time understanding won’t help matters.
If a poem is about love or loss, use your words carefully. Do not disguise psychiatric journaling as poetry. I don’t want to be on prozac to read someone’s mental disorder. Thats time, I will never recover. It is also cruel to inflict your misery upon another.
Overly sentimental pap is next on my list. How many ways are you going to describe a broken heart in a poem? The super sweet poetry of a hopeful person can be just as wretched as the greeting cards they should be writing for.
I know that this sounds cynical, mean spirited and, even angry. Its not. I am just tired of reading about magical purple unicorns, or hearing about how the blood ran down the walls, as I was abused as a child, and having people call it poetry.
I promise to do my best, to not waste your time. If, I write something that you feel is sub-standard or even down right awful, feel free to comment. It is YOUR OPINION. I would only ask that if, you feel the powerful urge to correct or edit one of my poems, you do so with the goal of helping me. I will never hurt anothers feelings by running down their work. That is mean spirited and cruel. I won’t do that.
I am not an editor. I am very new to poetry. I do not have years and years of writing under my belt. But, as Jesse Helms once said about Pornography, “I can’t define it for you, but I know what it is when I see it.”
Posting this, will…I hope spark a discussion on what we think poetry is or isn’t. I hope it will create honest discussions on how to help anothers writing. If one of us is improved, then as a community we are all improved.
I want to see the absolute best poetry, we as a growing community can create. Feel free to comment on this. I would hope though, that you would restrain yourself from burning me in effigy or sending hate mail and pipe bombs.
David S. Baker
Pahrump, Nevada
I've got to admit
It’s easier to dismiss poetry as bad than to work at it and find it’s value. I am committed to doing that, finding value.
And hopefully never to become a bitter and twisted bitch like poe.
cheers,
Jess
Hi David...
I thought I’d thank you for the content of this post..You’ve recieved some wonderful responses. The people here love what they do..We must be in the right place now. I think we all have something to say about our own idea’s of what poetry is, but if it doesn’t connect who will read it? I don’t believe in squashing a writer’s hopes just because I might not like their words or connect with what they are saying…but does that make it bad poetry..I don’t know. I do know I liked almost every song the beatles ever did..almost.
Sometimes a word I don’t know demands I look it up because it fits the form, sometimes the content won’t allow form and sometimes if it doesn’t jump out at me I can’t even finish the read. And tomorrow I might see it another way.
Just thought I’d throw that out there.
poetry
hi, The above list of commits confirms poetry is alive but not honest. There are few kings, queens, presidents and dictators; so what, I can write too. Is there a corpse that breathes? No, there is not, just as there is no poet honest enough to say ill step aside. The junk pile of today’s poetry demands poets of merit and alleged poets to join the rampage. The New Yorker Magazine for instance prints poetry, poetry that is trite abstracts of journalism not poetry. The I (s) have it all to them selves, none able to discern what is a poem worthy of commit, so they print one another’s gibberish, expecting hush, lush praise. In stead they get enviable on slots of creative naive poets of no merit who challenge their affluence of effluence. That inadvertently confirms their chairs and thrones, the New Yorker types that deny their own demise of circulation. Poetry is to be enjoyed by the reader not to stimulate their muses in abuse of poetry in sites that propagate it, bad poetry that is. And that is today’s fact; a virtual conundrum of justification between the haves’ and have notes. poe
I'd have to agree
…with what I have seen with my friends and from reading poetry myself…I would have to agree that there is no definition unless you set rules for there to be one. My friend has written poetry that I have seen many people read only a line and hand back the page, asking why she was wasting their time…yet, when you read it, you could see how much work she put in it and what it means to her…
MY REPLY
I am happy that this subject has generated so much comment-(which was the intention all along!)
Jesse Helms once said that he could not define pornography, but he knew what it was when he saw it. That being said, we all know when we have read poetry and when we have read a collection of words. I can’t define poetry for you, anymore than say define a color to a person that has never seen a color in their life. I still stand by my earlier assertion that some poetry is best left in the journal or expressed in a group therapy session.
Form-Yes, I agree that knowing how to write a Quatrain or Tercet, can be very liberating artistically. There is a wonderful site based out of Australia, called the Poets Garret. It is one of the single most important poetry sites on the internet that I know of-(for learning various forms.) You can find just about any poetry form that has been used, with and I reserve the right to be wrong…Arabic and Pre-Islamic poetry forms.
As to the haves and the have nots-The last time I was published, it was in an Anthology of New Mexico poets-(There is a reason I brought this up, please bear with me.) At the time I was working at the University of Nevada Las Vegas, as a maintenance worker. Which in the eyes of most of the Profs, there automatically included me in the filthy un-washed and ill educated masses. When they found out I had been published it was like they were witnessing a Chimpanzee stand up on his hind legs and begin quoting Shakespeare.
There is in fact an Ivory Tower syndrome. If you have not been educated at a particular institution, or majored in English literature, then most mainstream college educated intellectuals have a tendency to try and marginalize you and your poetry.
In the Untied States there is also a West Coast vs. East Coast thing going on. Reminds me of Tupac and Biggy Smalls mninus the bullets. Seriously though, it is hard for a poet that is from say, the Western half of the country to be published by an East Coast publisher. I am pretty sure that the reverse holds true as well.
As far as poetry that has been read or not read…That is a slippery slope. Other sites on the net, often time require that you review-(as honestly as you can) anothers work(s) before you submit or have one of your poems reviwed. The slipperey slope is…This site is one that you hopefully want to join, not have a lot of people telling you what you have to do.
I do think though that if, you take the time to read anothers poem, then you should have the common decency to leave a comment. For those of us that have thin skin, remember that YOU asked for the comments. If they are not to your liking, then you only have YOURSELF to blame.
In any case these are my thoughts and to some extent, my replies to those who have taken the time to post a comment on this thread. I promise I will write more later on.
-DSB
Ohhhh lmao
nice piece of wisdom there Jess, thanks.
Mark
I look forward
… . to reading more of what you write David.
thanks,
Mark
Well stated David and I see a work shop developing here on your
forum.I think this is a great lead-in to a porfolio workshop.Something I was chatting with someone about was there are plenty of publish workshops on other sites but not many porfolio workshops and I hear building a porfolio is a vital step in any writing or art as well as poetry.
complicated words
I could spend hours flipping pages of the dictionary or that other one the thesaurus or the almighty nightmare (for me) The Rhyming Dictionary but it seems I only do in regards to others work - well occasionally mine as well. My point is that I once read a book called Getting the Words Right (there are tons of editing books out there) and one thing I learned is to avoid complicated words. In my persuit for the right words I find that the meaning in poetry (mine at least) is lost with complicated words. A complicated word can act just like a period - a stop, for most people in my opinion. Mary had a little lamb …. well we all know the story :-)
My thoughts ECT
Mark,
I post pretty heavily on another site. One of my friends there, has been arguing with me over form vs. content.
Form in my opinion will come later. I cannot remember the exact quote, but Bukowski said, something to the effect, that of all the works of poetry that he had read up to something like 1958 were slavish copies of earlier forms and poems. They didn’t challenge, nor were they orginal. He went on to point out an English poet who wrote in the mind 18th Century….1750’s period. I wish I could remember his name-sorry.
In any case Bukowski asked his future readers and writers of poetry to write what their hearts and mind tell them. Not to just try for the “artistic” sensibility. Don’t write to please.
Use simple, clear, concise, language.
With clear language, without the artifice of forms our readers can create their own visions from what we give them. Yes your right, in saying for a lot of readers, a complicated word, is often just like a period. It will completely throw them off. Another offense that sometimes I have seen, filling a poem with nothing but “High Falutin Words” as one of my English Prof.’s said. Most folks will stop on the second or maybe the third line, and call it quits.
Once again you are left with a finely crafted, overly wordy, steaming pile of horse manure. At least it will help the daisy’s grow…….!
All my best!
David
California is proof that Hell is full, and the Dead walk the streets.
English Major ...
Maybe my real complaint is one reason I was “pushed” out of high school was my lack of ability in English (for a lot of reasons) and regret it sometimes (lots of times). Being moody sometimes I write from my head and other times from my heart sometimes me eyes only then add my head later - see what I mean lol Drivin by my moods my writing seems to be in sync. Knowing the more complicated words would make much of the poetry I read move so much smoother I know and the inability to percieve and to move along smoothly only brings on reminders of those days when so many life changes at once put me to sleep in English Class. I hope there was no insult I thought it a good topic. Personally I do not think there is an argument. I have always said there are no rules in poetry unless you make them. Each work for me seems to be an individual in content. Form or no form comes after the content BUT sometimes I do try and challenge myself by deciding on form first. Sometimes even finding some kind of theme in my more visual writes is a challenge but the work is self rewarding. Form/content 90 % of the time I am working with content first and inspired by something either out or in but the inspiration well that is an in thing.
No Argument
There is no arguement coming from me. LOL I was trying to explain a on-going conversation that I have been having with another friend.
I hope you didn’t think I was aiming ANY of my comments your way. Please keep up the work.
All the Best!
-DS Baker
California is proof that Hell is full, and the Dead walk the streets.
My Thoughts
I know my thoughts on this topic may be totally different then more then less of the p eople who write… However I started to write when I was only 13.. As some may of already seen It was a way for me to tell those secrets of things that happend when I was growing up.. And growing up in a alcoholic home everything was a secret.. Especially any abuse that happend rather it was in the home or not.. So had to find a way to wrote.. And to me it does not have to rhyme.. Writting comes from the heart and from your soul.. And that does not always rhythm.. So just my thoughts.. Not sure if anyone else will agree.. Putting the workds on paper is what happens..
Cathy
Cathy's thoughts
i really understand what your saying, cathy…as i too came from an alcholic background…but did not know how or to write out my feelings, so have that all inside of me…watch out when i get started though…lol…love, mamat
Poetry
I think sometimes Bukowski exaggerated the directness of how he wrote, as though it just spilled out onto the page—I’m sure he sat for hours, occasionally, wondering what the next line was like everyone else.
The problem with poetry right now is the domination of the publishing industry by Neo-Formalists. This revolt against free verse led by staid academic ivory tower types who perhaps understandably got sick of some of the crap being churned out in the 60’s had a kneejerk reaction and decided to strangle all vitality with this return to “meter”. What has suffered is the essence of poetry: vitality. Dana Gioia and Robert Pinsky are good examples. Not that they haven’t written things of worth, it’s just that the ideas they propagate are destructive and limiting to young poets.
Poetry isn't a matter of
Poetry isn’t a matter of form. That maybe in the past but in modern times free verse practically killed formed and structured poetry. In high school you’re taught to read poetry in iambic meters and to stop at the end of each line, which doesn’t really help the reader to understand the piece itself. They stress more on form than on the language itself. As for sentimental jargons or gibberish rants, those are just that, jargons and rants. Langston Hughes thought that all poetry had to rhyme, until one of his english told him otherwise.
Nowadays people can call anything poetry.Any thing they put down on paper can be called a poem. For the academics they may use a higher vocabulary but that doesn’t mean they can write any better. As for everyone else, well, some may not know the difference between bad, decent, good or great poetry. That in itself is a matter of opinion. Most don’t know that difference because they read with emotions, relating themselves to that piece. In the Lyrical Ballad by William Wordsworth and Samuel L. Coleridge, they argued that poetry is a build up of “powerful feelings of emotions”. In many sense it is true. Many people write out of anger, loss, depression and other emotions in the height of that emotion, therefore is just gibberish rants.
The two things that is constantly in each poem every written is language and content. One you can easily find but the other is hard to see. The content is always there or else there wouldn’t be a poem. Where as the language in the poem is another matter. Bukowski’s work, although may sound like a rant with its content. But in reading it the language in is deliberate. Some stuff in there are for shock value but use it in the right content it works well.
An evolving Art form
Poetry for me is a souls expression. A rebel against set form and rules : ) I often say that form without artistry and depth is nothing. Words set to form with forced rhyme does not make a good poem if it lacks imagery and emotion. The Art of Poetry is like a fine painting… I personally prefer the abstract and the surreal.
It is said there are two ways of doing things
The right way and the wrong way
I believe there is a third way
A NEW WAY
JVS
I have a recording
from the infamous International Library of Poetry shhh don’t tell Andy I wrote that OK ;-) BUT it says “There are no rules in poetry” however in light of all the rules I have seen I take the statement a bit further to say “There are no rules in poetry except the rules “YOU MAKE” You bet spririt ! - don’t look back or even to the sides but move forward into something not done before.
Everything goes
I deplore trite sentimentality and anguished angst as being the easiest way to write bad poetry.
On the other hand I think a knowledge of traditional forms and structures merely helps us avoid repeating other peoples experiments.
We have the unique freedom to choose any form or structure we like.
So it would be a shame not to use that freedom.
What do I like?
Like won’t do, I am utterly passionate about poetry, and so often take fun too seriously, what do I adore?
Words that fly off the page like butterflies or shoot me between the eyes or scramble franticly into a place or space or feeling I have, or have not, been before.
My biggest concern on this site, by far is how to tell someone they are writing trite useless crap without squashing the potential there.
I really need some help with that.
cheers,
Jess
Poetry is Life
To me the best poems are those that ‘take you there’, so you can see, smell, hear almost taste what the poet is writing to you about. Poetry is the ability to create magic in words, thoughts and feelings in a way that people connect to and can resonate with!
I prefer to rhyme but others dont and that fine with me - if a poem makes me go wow its made it!
Jess, I think honesty in comments is important and from what i have seen of yours i feel you ave it about right. You dont criticise for the sake of it - but offer constructive suggestions…thats I feel the way reviews and comments should be. its up to the author to decide whether or not they wish to act on those suggestions.
(I hope that made sense!)
Cheers - kaz x
A little input of my own
This girl sits at her desk. She sits with a feeling of rejection a feeling of sadness. She has no one to talk to, no one to confide in. All this little girl has is paper and a pen. She writes day after day night after night. For her this is the only way, she throws a book in the closet and pulls out another one. She grows up cherishing these books, for you see these books, that paper and the pen, they were her only friends. Someone decides to read them one day and stops after reading the first page. A tear drop slides down his face from the pain she put all on just one page. Some call it poetry some call it crap, but to her its her life.
A lot of people read something and think well that’s just bs. But maybe to the next person that reads it they can relate, or just maybe it will bring back a memory and make them smile. It might actually make someone feel that they are not alone in this world with so many screwed up problems!!!! I try not to be harsh in my reviews just for that fact that if I didn’t like it, it doesn’t mean the next person won’t!!!! I don’t know I don’t think there are rules of poetry. To me its writing its emotion, its life on paper, fantasies and dreams. I enjoy almost all of the work on this site and I enjoy reading and reviewing, thank you all for this opportunity.. I will continue on with this site I just wanted to put a little input of my own out there!
Thanks For The Time
Brittany Rae
I guess I could say I'm A Slave To Poetry
Poetry is my life and I couldn’t live without it
Whoever invented poetry I bow to them.
I spend about 22 hours writing and I have 900 poems I have written’.
I have 2 books published for I only expected one
The Lord blessed me and published 2 of my books.
I am doing this for my daughter.
When she is grown and has children of her own.
My grandchildren will have my poems to cherish as they grow old
You can take the poem out of your heart, but you can’t take the poet out of your soul.
I am faithful and true for these words I write
they belong to me.
The majority of my poems were inspired from my own experiences within my lifetime.
Some of the poems have come from good and not so good things that my friends and family have experienced.
How well you offend (sensable offense)
I have crash poet tendencies I had to right my wrongs before to clean my cerabelum
I look back at my poems (uncommented on and rightly so)torture to remember ,like a wreck that a bystander is caught in.
Change perspective to the person watching the crash critiquily now the car is laying on one of the passengers that is gratuitous,the tact comes in is in describing wreck to the driver and maybe an insurance agent.tye poet needs to hear how it is bad to improve.
so if i may offer a comparrision of tact:
“This poem is trite…!” “you waste my time with this…”
“Perhaps you inject to much emotion into this poem”“Tighten up the stanzas find definition for verses that seem to cram themselves into the poem.”
“This god stuff bleeds my ass…!”“Oh no not another teen love triangle blaa poem”
“If you took this to your pastor I am sure they will like it …i can see clearly how they would.”well this poem is a hard copy to look back on a spring board for a bridge to get over the hurt start the healing and write poetry.”
Then the response of a person that is really intrested in becoming a poet/writer respondse with specific questions they may have asked themselves as they wrote it.
and the woa I am Woa…Whoa-would-be-goth-song-writer, goes away and writes at a site that woas with them.
a bit of fun and rib now and then helps the crique roll out better i must articulate because this is an inviting forum David i have seen some of your crits and comments in the archive poems and look forward to reading some of yours.
in ink
David
My personal take on this is
My personal take on this is that poetry is more a matter of how we use words than just strictly a matter of form. After having written and taught creative writing for several years I have found many an example of so called ‘poems’ written to the strictures of form but fail to ‘read’ as poetry and lack the very essence of the poetic experience. Prose and oration that isn’t poetry can also take on a very poetic mien especially in the hands of the eloquent and word-crafty person.
In bringing the above strands of thought together makes me come to the conclusion that a poem is meant by its creator to be a poem, and with appropriate reading and readership (or audience) would be received as such - no matter how strange or unconventional the form or flow or rhythm to what we are used to. I know that broadens a possible definition or cognizance of poetry.